I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was not
actually in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More accurately
he can be described as a wounded insurgent. That said though, the
killing was unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed and
wounded, and was shot at point blank range. Apparently he has been
removed from active duty, and there was mention of him perhaps even
facing a murder charge.
BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Sutherland Email
Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
Cheers
Gary
OT-free version of this list:
http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of
the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This
statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid
to see the obvious.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
Pegasus Software Limited is a member of the Systems Union Group plc
Registered Office: Systems Union House, 1 Lakeside Road, Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6XP Registered No: 1601542
This e-mail is from Pegasus Software Limited. The e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. Please notify the sender by e-mail or telephone.
Pegasus Software Limited utilise an anti-virus system and therefore any files sent via e-mail will have been checked for known viruses. You are however advised to run your own virus check before opening any attachments received as Pegasus Software Limited will not in any event accept any liability whatsoever once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
Thanks Demonic, and apologies for the non-OT. It's early and I'm recovering
from a bug so only running on about half brain power.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: profox-bounces@leafe.com [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com]On
Behalf Of Dominic Burford
Sent: 16 November 2004 08:53
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was not
actually in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More accurately
he can be described as a wounded insurgent. That said though, the
killing was unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed and
wounded, and was shot at point blank range. Apparently he has been
removed from active duty, and there was mention of him perhaps even
facing a murder charge.
BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Sutherland Email
Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
Cheers
Gary
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Theres allways an other side to the story.
I donââ¬â¢t know the details either, but the guy that shot him had just been
wounded the day before himself AND apparently the Insurgents/TRASH/Varmints
have been booby trapping dead bodies, so if thatââ¬â¢s the scenario, even though
it probably isnt right well I would have done the same thing.
Funny, when we do it, ya'll say we're not complying with the rules.
When they do it, there are no rules <grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: profox-bounces@leafe.com [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf
Of Dominic Burford
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:53 AM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was not actually
in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More accurately he can be
described as a wounded insurgent. That said though, the killing was
unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed and wounded, and was shot
at point blank range. Apparently he has been removed from active duty, and
there was mention of him perhaps even facing a murder charge.
BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Sutherland Email
Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
Cheers
Gary
[excessive quoting removed by server]
He made the mistake of not cutting his head off. That would have
been OK I guess.
--- Dominic Burford <Dominic.Burford@Pegasus.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was
> not
> actually in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More
> accurately
> he can be described as a wounded insurgent. That said though,
> the
> killing was unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed
> and
> wounded, and was shot at point blank range. Apparently he has
> been
> removed from active duty, and there was mention of him perhaps
> even
> facing a murder charge.
>
> BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
>
> Regards
>
> Dominic Burford
> Software Engineer
>
> Pegasus Software Limited
> Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
>
> * Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
> * Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
> * dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
>
> "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
> design:
> One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no
> deficiencies, and
> the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
> obvious
> deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Sutherland Email
> Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
> To: profox@leafe.com
> Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
>
>
>
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
>
> NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
>
> Cheers
> Gary
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
> Subscription Maintenance:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
> OT-free version of this list:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
> ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the
> opinions of
> the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This
> statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are
> too stupid
> to see the obvious.
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> For more information please visit
> http://www.messagelabs.com/email
>
______________________________________________________________________
>
>
> Pegasus Software Limited is a member of the Systems Union Group
> plc
> Registered Office: Systems Union House, 1 Lakeside Road,
> Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6XP Registered
> No: 1601542
> This e-mail is from Pegasus Software Limited. The e-mail and
> any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
> addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error you must
> not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it.
> Please notify the sender by e-mail or telephone.
> Pegasus Software Limited utilise an anti-virus system and
> therefore any files sent via e-mail will have been checked for
> known viruses. You are however advised to run your own virus
> check before opening any attachments received as Pegasus
> Software Limited will not in any event accept any liability
> whatsoever once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> For more information please visit
> http://www.messagelabs.com/email
>
______________________________________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
> Subscription Maintenance:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
> OT-free version of this list:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
> ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the
> opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical
> advice. This statement is added to the messages for those
> lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
=====
Bush won, Kerry lost, no more whining!
Demonic LOL
--- Gary Sutherland <gary@HarrowdenIT.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks Demonic, and apologies for the non-OT. It's early and
> I'm recovering
> from a bug so only running on about half brain power.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: profox-bounces@leafe.com
> [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com]On
> Behalf Of Dominic Burford
> Sent: 16 November 2004 08:53
> To: ProFox Email List
> Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
>
>
> I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was
> not
> actually in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More
> accurately
> he can be described as a wounded insurgent. That said though,
> the
> killing was unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed
> and
> wounded, and was shot at point blank range. Apparently he has
> been
> removed from active duty, and there was mention of him perhaps
> even
> facing a murder charge.
>
> BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
>
> Regards
>
> Dominic Burford
> Software Engineer
>
> Pegasus Software Limited
> Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
>
> * Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
> * Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
> * dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
>
> "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
> design:
> One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no
> deficiencies, and
> the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
> obvious
> deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Sutherland Email
> Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
> To: profox@leafe.com
> Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
>
>
>
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
>
> NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
>
> Cheers
> Gary
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Virgil, the Marine in question shot an unarmed and wounded man by a
shooting him at point blank range. Whatever your political persuasion,
you must surely admit that this was wrong. From the footage I saw on
the news, the guy was lying on the floor, and was making no attempt to
threaten the Marine in the slightest.
If being shot at during a conflict makes you that trigger happy and
nervous, then perhaps the Armed Forces is not the correct career path
for you. Why was such an easily intimidated and nervous soldier serving
in Fallujah?
As to your other point, you lead by example. If we did what they did,
we'd be the same as them. Right?
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Virgil Bierschwale [mailto:vbiersch@msn.com]
Sent: 16 November 2004 13:09
To: 'ProFox Email List'
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
Theres allways an other side to the story.
I don't know the details either, but the guy that shot him had just been
wounded the day before himself AND apparently the
Insurgents/TRASH/Varmints
have been booby trapping dead bodies, so if that's the scenario, even
though
it probably isnt right well I would have done the same thing.
Funny, when we do it, ya'll say we're not complying with the rules.
When they do it, there are no rules <grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: profox-bounces@leafe.com [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On
Behalf
Of Dominic Burford
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:53 AM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was not
actually
in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More accurately he can be
described as a wounded insurgent. That said though, the killing was
unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed and wounded, and was
shot
at point blank range. Apparently he has been removed from active duty,
and
there was mention of him perhaps even facing a murder charge.
BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Sutherland Email
Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
Cheers
Gary
[excessive quoting removed by server]
OT-free version of this list:
http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of
the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This
statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid
to see the obvious.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
Pegasus Software Limited is a member of the Systems Union Group plc
Registered Office: Systems Union House, 1 Lakeside Road, Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6XP Registered No: 1601542
This e-mail is from Pegasus Software Limited. The e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. Please notify the sender by e-mail or telephone.
Pegasus Software Limited utilise an anti-virus system and therefore any files sent via e-mail will have been checked for known viruses. You are however advised to run your own virus check before opening any attachments received as Pegasus Software Limited will not in any event accept any liability whatsoever once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Virgil Bierschwale" <vbiersch@msn.com>
> Theres allways an other side to the story.
There is, but in this case we will never hear it
because the guy is dead.
This sort of thing goes on in wartime, but shows
just what a dumbass that soldier was. He must have
known there was a journalist with him, camera in tow.
To let yourself be filmed and recorded doing that is
what we call a "no brainer".
Peter
---------------------------------------------------------------
This communication and the information it contains is intended for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed.Its contents are confidential and may be protected in law. Unauthorised use, copying or disclosure of any of it may be unlawful.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone or email.
While Rajan Imports has taken every reasonable precaution to minimise the risk of virus transmission through email, we cannot accept liability for any damage which you sustain as a result of software viruses.
It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that they have adequate virus protection.
Rajan Imports Ltd
61 Great Ducie Street, Manchester M3 1RR.
Tel:0161 831 3700 Fax:0161 831 3715 www.rajan-group.co.uk
<< He made the mistake of not cutting his head off. That would have
been OK I guess.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Madigan [mailto:mmadi10699@yahoo.com]
Sent: 16 November 2004 13:11
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
He made the mistake of not cutting his head off. That would have
been OK I guess.
--- Dominic Burford <Dominic.Burford@Pegasus.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was
> not
> actually in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More
> accurately
> he can be described as a wounded insurgent. That said though,
> the
> killing was unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed
> and
> wounded, and was shot at point blank range. Apparently he has
> been
> removed from active duty, and there was mention of him perhaps
> even
> facing a murder charge.
>
> BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
>
> Regards
>
> Dominic Burford
> Software Engineer
>
> Pegasus Software Limited
> Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
>
> * Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
> * Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
> * dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
>
> "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software
> design:
> One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no
> deficiencies, and
> the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
> obvious
> deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Sutherland Email
> Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
> To: profox@leafe.com
> Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
>
>
>
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
>
> NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
>
> Cheers
> Gary
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
> Subscription Maintenance:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
> OT-free version of this list:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
> ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the
> opinions of
> the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This
> statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are
> too stupid
> to see the obvious.
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> For more information please visit
> http://www.messagelabs.com/email
>
______________________________________________________________________
>
>
> Pegasus Software Limited is a member of the Systems Union Group
> plc
> Registered Office: Systems Union House, 1 Lakeside Road,
> Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6XP Registered
> No: 1601542
> This e-mail is from Pegasus Software Limited. The e-mail and
> any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
> addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error you must
> not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it.
> Please notify the sender by e-mail or telephone.
> Pegasus Software Limited utilise an anti-virus system and
> therefore any files sent via e-mail will have been checked for
> known viruses. You are however advised to run your own virus
> check before opening any attachments received as Pegasus
> Software Limited will not in any event accept any liability
> whatsoever once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> For more information please visit
> http://www.messagelabs.com/email
>
______________________________________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
> Subscription Maintenance:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox
> OT-free version of this list:
> http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
> ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the
> opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical
> advice. This statement is added to the messages for those
> lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
=====
Bush won, Kerry lost, no more whining!
OT-free version of this list:
http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of
the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This
statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid
to see the obvious.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
Pegasus Software Limited is a member of the Systems Union Group plc
Registered Office: Systems Union House, 1 Lakeside Road, Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6XP Registered No: 1601542
This e-mail is from Pegasus Software Limited. The e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. Please notify the sender by e-mail or telephone.
Pegasus Software Limited utilise an anti-virus system and therefore any files sent via e-mail will have been checked for known viruses. You are however advised to run your own virus check before opening any attachments received as Pegasus Software Limited will not in any event accept any liability whatsoever once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
I don't agree that it was right..
However I see the other side of the story.
IF there were a chance that this person had booby trapped himself, which
apparently happens AND if he was in fact armed which is what I heard AND if
I had been shot the day before myself, well I'm sure there is bound to be an
"Its us or them" mentality in a situation like that.
I do not have no experience so I can't say what I would do.
I'm all for leading by example but I'm also realistic enough to know that
this only works when others play by the same rules.
-----Original Message-----
From: profox-bounces@leafe.com [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf
Of Dominic Burford
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:20 AM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
Virgil, the Marine in question shot an unarmed and wounded man by a shooting
him at point blank range. Whatever your political persuasion, you must
surely admit that this was wrong. From the footage I saw on the news, the
guy was lying on the floor, and was making no attempt to threaten the Marine
in the slightest.
If being shot at during a conflict makes you that trigger happy and nervous,
then perhaps the Armed Forces is not the correct career path for you. Why
was such an easily intimidated and nervous soldier serving in Fallujah?
As to your other point, you lead by example. If we did what they did, we'd
be the same as them. Right?
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Virgil Bierschwale [mailto:vbiersch@msn.com]
Sent: 16 November 2004 13:09
To: 'ProFox Email List'
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
Theres allways an other side to the story.
I don't know the details either, but the guy that shot him had just been
wounded the day before himself AND apparently the Insurgents/TRASH/Varmints
have been booby trapping dead bodies, so if that's the scenario, even though
it probably isnt right well I would have done the same thing.
Funny, when we do it, ya'll say we're not complying with the rules.
When they do it, there are no rules <grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: profox-bounces@leafe.com [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf
Of Dominic Burford
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:53 AM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was not actually
in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More accurately he can be
described as a wounded insurgent. That said though, the killing was
unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed and wounded, and was shot
at point blank range. Apparently he has been removed from active duty, and
there was mention of him perhaps even facing a murder charge.
BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Sutherland Email
Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
Cheers
Gary
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Virgil, I would take your point much more seriously if the guy had made
a sudden move, or appeared to be armed, or threatened the soldier in
some way. As it was, the guy was lying on the floor wounded, probably
unconscious.
The mosque where the insurgents were found had been attacked the day
before by another Marine unit. The insurgents inside were left for dead
until the next unit came along and found them (which incidentally is
also being questioned). From what I saw from the video, one of them was
already willing to talk so as to spare his life, and the others were
motionless.
Yes, in the heat of battle things do happen that sometimes should not.
But this was not the heat of battle. They had simply discovered some
wounded insurgents from a previous attack.
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Virgil Bierschwale [mailto:vbiersch@msn.com]
Sent: 16 November 2004 13:29
To: 'ProFox Email List'
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
I don't agree that it was right..
However I see the other side of the story.
IF there were a chance that this person had booby trapped himself, which
apparently happens AND if he was in fact armed which is what I heard AND
if
I had been shot the day before myself, well I'm sure there is bound to
be an
"Its us or them" mentality in a situation like that.
I do not have no experience so I can't say what I would do.
I'm all for leading by example but I'm also realistic enough to know
that
this only works when others play by the same rules.
-----Original Message-----
From: profox-bounces@leafe.com [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On
Behalf
Of Dominic Burford
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:20 AM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
Virgil, the Marine in question shot an unarmed and wounded man by a
shooting
him at point blank range. Whatever your political persuasion, you must
surely admit that this was wrong. From the footage I saw on the news,
the
guy was lying on the floor, and was making no attempt to threaten the
Marine
in the slightest.
If being shot at during a conflict makes you that trigger happy and
nervous,
then perhaps the Armed Forces is not the correct career path for you.
Why
was such an easily intimidated and nervous soldier serving in Fallujah?
As to your other point, you lead by example. If we did what they did,
we'd
be the same as them. Right?
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Virgil Bierschwale [mailto:vbiersch@msn.com]
Sent: 16 November 2004 13:09
To: 'ProFox Email List'
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
Theres allways an other side to the story.
I don't know the details either, but the guy that shot him had just been
wounded the day before himself AND apparently the
Insurgents/TRASH/Varmints
have been booby trapping dead bodies, so if that's the scenario, even
though
it probably isnt right well I would have done the same thing.
Funny, when we do it, ya'll say we're not complying with the rules.
When they do it, there are no rules <grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: profox-bounces@leafe.com [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On
Behalf
Of Dominic Burford
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:53 AM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: RE: [OT] US War Crimes in Fallujah?
I'm not sure if the victim can be described as a POW, as he was not
actually
in the custody of the US Marines at the time. More accurately he can be
described as a wounded insurgent. That said though, the killing was
unnecessary and callous. The victim was unarmed and wounded, and was
shot
at point blank range. Apparently he has been removed from active duty,
and
there was mention of him perhaps even facing a murder charge.
BTW I've added the [OT] for you ;-)
Regards
Dominic Burford
Software Engineer
Pegasus Software Limited
Orion House, Orion Way, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6PE
* Tel: +44 (1536) 495074
* Fax: +44 (1536) 495001
* dominic.burford@pegasus.co.uk
"I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design:
One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and
the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Sutherland Email
Sent: 16 November 2004 08:38
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: US War Crimes in Fallujah?
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583322
NBC apparently have footage of a US Marine murdering a POW.
Cheers
Gary
[excessive quoting removed by server]
OT-free version of this list:
http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech
** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of
the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This
statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid
to see the obvious.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
Pegasus Software Limited is a member of the Systems Union Group plc
Registered Office: Systems Union House, 1 Lakeside Road, Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6XP Registered No: 1601542
This e-mail is from Pegasus Software Limited. The e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. Please notify the sender by e-mail or telephone.
Pegasus Software Limited utilise an anti-virus system and therefore any files sent via e-mail will have been checked for known viruses. You are however advised to run your own virus check before opening any attachments received as Pegasus Software Limited will not in any event accept any liability whatsoever once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________