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#openstack-nova - 2017-04-25
10:26:07 bauzas stian__: see https://docs.openstack.org/developer/nova/cells.html#proposal for explanations
10:26:21 stian__ thanks
10:28:28 openstackgerrit fengzhr proposed openstack/nova master: Modify the description of flat_injected in nova.conf https://review.openstack.org/458789
10:37:56 BobBall mikal: That's weird - not seen that before. pool_states is clearly in the code tree. It's also curious that http://dd6b71949550285df7dc-dda4e480e005aaa13ec303551d2d8155.r49.cf1.rackcdn.com/66/459166/1/check/dsvm-tempest-neutron-network/13ee311/logs/screen-n-cpu.txt.gz fails for Citrix CI but not for Jenkins??
10:40:27 openstackgerrit Sylvain Bauza proposed openstack/nova-specs master: Claims in the scheduler https://review.openstack.org/437424
10:47:10 asettle cdent: you pinged yesterday?
10:47:53 asettle Ah, more install guide shenanigans
10:48:00 cdent asettle: I was invoking you in a discussion about the install guide docs for placement and the bug that Br[yi]an made the other day
10:48:18 asettle Hahhaha Brian :p
10:48:26 asettle Yes, just reading scroll back
10:48:29 asettle Jeez this never ends hey
10:48:33 cdent indeed
10:48:46 asettle I'm thinking we just scrap cells and placements and everythign and just have nothing and then there can be no complaints
10:48:47 asettle perfect.
10:48:57 cdent my late father in law is a Bryan so I try not to assume :)
10:49:10 asettle Of course :)
10:50:28 cdent as usual I think the fundamental problem here was lack of communication between nova-people, docs-people and packaging-people. and what communication did happen was a-b-c instead of everyone to everyone
10:50:47 openstackgerrit John Garbutt proposed openstack/nova master: WIP: Remove all discoverable policy rules https://review.openstack.org/459608
10:52:31 asettle cdent: awesome -.-
10:52:32 openstackgerrit John Garbutt proposed openstack/nova master: Remove all discoverable policy rules https://review.openstack.org/459608
10:53:07 cdent asettle: quite
10:53:51 asettle Ahhhh weeellllllll
10:55:16 johnthetubaguy cdent: its amazing how well we manage to avoid / miss / stop everyone <-> everyone communication :(
10:56:03 cdent johnthetubaguy: yes. I would argue it is because we've decome to dependent on IRC (and thus synchrony) and that leaves everyone that's not there out
10:56:29 cdent decome is an interesting word that I think I will use more often, once I figure out what it means
10:56:35 asettle I could probably easily see that happening. Sadly, it's easy to become insular even when you're trying to be open.
10:56:46 johnthetubaguy cdent: yeah, I think you are right, I was reflect on that doing the "making us more global" doc
10:56:48 asettle cdent: it fits perfectly. Makes you look smart.
10:56:52 asettle I'm a writer, I should know.
10:57:37 cdent A writer™
10:58:02 zioproto dansmith: ping ?
10:58:06 johnthetubaguy cdent: something like relaying on tribal knowledge, and IRC as a way to get hold of it?
10:58:18 cdent pretty much
10:58:19 asettle cdent: I should get a shirt with that.
10:58:39 cdent asettle: the number of t-shirt ideas I've had going in to this summit has been _huge_
10:58:44 johnthetubaguy zioproto: as a head up, he is on the west coast of the US, although he does tend to get on IRC quite early
10:58:45 cdent but I've failed to execute on any of them
10:58:54 asettle The best one I have for the moment is "Worked in devstack. Docs problem now."
10:58:57 johnthetubaguy cdent: need one of the velcro t-shirts
10:58:59 asettle Which is hilarious and horrifically sad.
10:59:26 cdent asettle: and sadly is pretty much exactly the problem that we started the conversation with
10:59:34 asettle Yes. Basically.
10:59:39 asettle ANd here we are, two months later.
11:00:05 asettle Ah well, now I hang out more often in the nova channel than I like to admit
11:00:05 cdent we'll figure it out, but it make take a while
11:00:42 johnthetubaguy I was talking through an idea on those deployment docs... could we pull out the packages and add in pip install, and let the package folks replace the bits they don't need
11:01:07 johnthetubaguy I am thinking make docs in a way developers think, but re-use them for the packages
11:01:13 asettle johnthetubaguy: don't get me started on that convo dude. I don't disagree with you one bit, but there is more people out there using the package docs than you would like to believe.
11:01:17 johnthetubaguy now I am not sure its feasible...
11:01:26 asettle johnthetubaguy: doesn't work like that. Developers don't think the way that our users and operators do.
11:01:32 johnthetubaguy asettle: right, not saying we don't need the package docs
11:01:40 asettle That is very apparent from the complete disconnection between the communities.
11:01:59 johnthetubaguy asettle: oh, very much so, but I packages are keeping us apart here
11:02:00 cdent I wonder, given the constriction in contributors, if package-related docs isn't the problem of the distros. In upstream we install from git or pip?
11:02:10 johnthetubaguy cdent: thats where I am thinking
11:02:24 sdague johnthetubaguy: there is a big problem with that, in that python doesn't handle a bunch of constructs natively that you need for system packages
11:02:30 cdent it's also aligned with the large swathes of people who puppet or ansible
11:02:32 zioproto johnthetubaguy: thanks !
11:02:32 sdague like CONF_DIR or SHARE_DIR
11:02:39 asettle Hmm. To be honest, I don't know. Might be a able to find out johnthetubaguy and cdent
11:02:42 johnthetubaguy sdague: yeah, I mean theres a lot of hand rolling needed
11:03:03 johnthetubaguy like I say, it totally may not be feasible, but it keeps coming up
11:03:11 johnthetubaguy I think the output has to be package docs, thats what the users needs
11:03:26 asettle Well, I mean, it all comes down to this though - even if we decide to go a different route with the docs, we need the peoople to do it, which - we do not have.,
11:03:26 johnthetubaguy I am really thinking about how we get something in between thats closer to devs
11:03:48 cdent asettle: yeah
11:03:51 sdague johnthetubaguy: I guess I'm coming in late, what's the current issue?
11:03:52 johnthetubaguy asettle: very true, the bootstrap of any of these needs people
11:03:57 asettle I would love to say that this conversation can really go somewhere this release, but I can't guarantee anything. I just lost 4 cores including myself (in theory)
11:04:06 johnthetubaguy sdague: we suck at updating the package docs
11:04:21 asettle johnthetubaguy: Okay can you please write that on a piece of paper and sign that and send it to me? I'dl ike to frame that :p
11:04:57 cdent another option, which is dire, but may represent the reality of lack of people: don't do docs
11:04:58 johnthetubaguy asettle: sure
11:05:08 cdent _really_ make it the distros problem
11:05:30 cdent I know that's unrealistic, but it puts the scale of the problem into the proper perspective
11:05:52 cdent at one end is: no docs and the other is: glorious hand crafted by the community docs for all install scenarios
11:06:20 johnthetubaguy bad docs is worse than no docs, in many ways
11:06:55 johnthetubaguy well, I mean to say, there is great value in knowing the current docs are broken
11:07:29 johnthetubaguy so we though we did enough docs as we went, for peoples needs
11:07:47 johnthetubaguy I guess my thing is how do we make that actually true
11:07:53 johnthetubaguy sdague: is that a better problem statement ^
11:08:47 sdague johnthetubaguy: yeh, probably
11:08:58 sdague sorry, first cup of coffee
11:09:38 johnthetubaguy I am waiting for a coffee delivery, but I think I should be OK, I have one pod left.
11:10:08 sdague in my world of wishes (stuff that would be nice but I don't know if ever would happen)
11:11:14 sdague 1) python install infrastructure understands basic unix semantics which means pip install nova would be totally realistic. Thus the differences between pip and packages is smaller, and things are more likely to work.
11:11:34 sdague which is probably 1 - 2 years upstream python work to get that into the python install infrastructure
11:12:13 sdague 2) the install manuals are marked up in such a way that the install procedure could be executed by a machine, so we don't just need human testers finding issues late in the process
11:12:55 cdent (if the docs can be tested by a machine, then an install can be done by a machine, and thus we don't need the instructions in the docs?)
11:13:47 sdague docs are also there to explain what is going on, they still need some testing
11:13:50 sdague manually
11:14:23 sdague it's just adding unit testing to the docs
11:14:26 cdent On 1, I think I disagree. The issue isn't entirely on the side of python packaging, it is the extent to which we think that packaging should manage the install. We shouldn't, for example, require a conf file, paste file, or policy file. Only if they are different.
11:14:35 mikal BobBall: interestingly, it only happens on my code. There's something subtle happening I'll have to dig into.
11:15:16 cdent And files that must exist can either be used as pkg_data, or be created on the fly
11:15:45 cdent or to put another way: the issues may be with the existing complexity, not the limitations of python packaging
11:15:52 asettle Jesus this is what happens when I don't look for 5 minutes
11:16:21 cdent we could look at the difficulties with the tooling as a smell in _our_ stuff, not the other stuff
11:16:26 asettle Uhhh *raises hand* I would say that no docs is probably not beneficial
11:16:49 cdent asettle: that's why it is over on the bad end of the scale

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