Hello there folks,
I'm looking to get some feedback from the hive mind of this group. And,
I will admit, I'm doing this kind of last minute. Too many things going
on lately, and I have not had a chance to do my true due diligence! Such
as thorough research via prior postings in this forum.
So as some of you may already know, I had a first interview for a
programmer job at UCLA. The second interview is coming up, it's supposed
to be this Thursday, but I might try to postpone until Friday. Too much
stuff going on in my life lately, including doing 2 different part time
jobs and an extended relative who passed away recently, that's the
reason I'm going down to LA for an in-person interview, since the last
interview I did via Skype.
It looks like UCLA really wants to move away from Foxpro, as they know
it's a dead language. But, they want to move to something similar to
VFP. I suspect its also because the 1 and only programmer there, who's
been there for like 30 years and may be retiring soon - doesn't want to
learn something Totally new. And, also wants to minimize the transition!
They are asking me to propose what I think is the best option. They have
mentioned several options such as Fox-in-Cloud, the Alpha software, and
even Servoy. They did not bring up things like Lianja, XoJo, or X# the
open source X-base language.
I know that Fox-in-Cloud even offers a type of Conversion Assistant -
which looks really Great! But, once its converted and running in the
cloud - I'm assuming that making updates to the system actually means
programming in something that is not actually FoxPro - as I think its
Javascript & HTML. But, I could be wrong - and am sure Thierry will
correct me.
There was also some recent discussion on X# which looked like a
potentially great option. But, I heard that via the last posting - the
FoxPro version of the code wasn't really ready yet!
They also told me that they have already been working with Alpha SW -
and in discussions with them for several months. Which makes me think
they are already leaning towards Alpha. A quick review of old postings
in this forum did not show a lot of discussion or users of Alpha. It
would really be great to hear from some Alpha users!
Anyway - any and all input would be greatly appreciated. I've seen
Numerous discussions about a number of these technologies here in the
forum over the years. But, honestly - I never truly got involved with
any of them - until NOW!
Regards,
Kurt
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Kurt,
I used Alpha 4 and Alpha 5 quite a lot about 12-15 years ago and it was a good solid XBase RAD platform but limiting in what it could do programming wise. Looking at their website it has obviously matured a great deal, the emphasis being on device independent application development. Well worth a look I think and must admit I am tempted myself!!
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-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox <profox-bounces@leafe.com> On Behalf Of Kurt at VR-FX
Sent: 20 March 2019 05:45
To: ProFox Email List <profox@leafe.com>
Subject: A FoxPro Transition @ UCLA...
Hello there folks,
I'm looking to get some feedback from the hive mind of this group. And, I will admit, I'm doing this kind of last minute. Too many things going on lately, and I have not had a chance to do my true due diligence! Such as thorough research via prior postings in this forum.
So as some of you may already know, I had a first interview for a programmer job at UCLA. The second interview is coming up, it's supposed to be this Thursday, but I might try to postpone until Friday. Too much stuff going on in my life lately, including doing 2 different part time jobs and an extended relative who passed away recently, that's the reason I'm going down to LA for an in-person interview, since the last interview I did via Skype.
It looks like UCLA really wants to move away from Foxpro, as they know it's a dead language. But, they want to move to something similar to VFP. I suspect its also because the 1 and only programmer there, who's been there for like 30 years and may be retiring soon - doesn't want to learn something Totally new. And, also wants to minimize the transition!
They are asking me to propose what I think is the best option. They have mentioned several options such as Fox-in-Cloud, the Alpha software, and even Servoy. They did not bring up things like Lianja, XoJo, or X# the open source X-base language.
I know that Fox-in-Cloud even offers a type of Conversion Assistant - which looks really Great! But, once its converted and running in the cloud - I'm assuming that making updates to the system actually means programming in something that is not actually FoxPro - as I think its Javascript & HTML. But, I could be wrong - and am sure Thierry will correct me.
There was also some recent discussion on X# which looked like a potentially great option. But, I heard that via the last posting - the FoxPro version of the code wasn't really ready yet!
They also told me that they have already been working with Alpha SW - and in discussions with them for several months. Which makes me think they are already leaning towards Alpha. A quick review of old postings in this forum did not show a lot of discussion or users of Alpha. It would really be great to hear from some Alpha users!
Anyway - any and all input would be greatly appreciated. I've seen Numerous discussions about a number of these technologies here in the forum over the years. But, honestly - I never truly got involved with any of them - until NOW!
Regards,
Kurt
[excessive quoting removed by server]
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Hi Kurt,
"they know it's a dead language":
- technically false: even if Microsoft no longer provides extensions,
many 3rd party initiatives keep it alive: west-wind, VFPx, VFPA,
FoxInCloud, and many others. VFP remains competitive on desktop and web.
- humanly: hen and egg story and self-fulfilling prophecy; the more we
advocate on how far we can expand the existing VFP code base to new
horizons (web, 64 bits, etc.) the more interest we can grow on VFP. The
more we internalize that we're dying, the more likely it'll happen.
About FoxInCloud,
"Conversion Assistant" is in fact an "Adaptation Assistant" (FAA): with
FoxInCloud the same code base can be deployed on either the desktop or
the Web, just by adapting the existing code base with the help and
guidance of FAA (and our support of course)
"making updates to the system actually means programming in something
that is not actually FoxPro"
FoxInCloud runs the application on the server (reason why the code is
adapted), and replaces the VFP UI by a HTML/CSS/JS user interface, tied
to the server by the user events (click, valid, etc.) through AJAX.
- Adding new functionalities generally requires some VFP development
that you can test in desktop mode before moving to the Web.
- Improving the user interface (eg. adding features that VFP does not
support such as animations, rounded corners, gradients, etc.) requires
CSS/JS coding that you can implement in an application-wide file (css
and/or js) or encapsulate within your VFP classes.
Thierry Nivelet
FoxInCloud
Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud
VisitFoxInCloud Blog <http://foxincloud.com/blog/>
WatchFoxInCloud Marketing Videos <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUzzqO5375-fA7dLDds-wOQ>
WatchFoxInCloud Technical Videos <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrEohAtbuf3uOXBH2pjp5Vw>
Stay tuned onFoxInCloud Roadmap <http://foxincloud.com/roadmap.php>
Learnhow to use FoxInCloud <http://foxincloud.com/how-to.php>
DownloadFoxInCloud Adaptation Assistant <http://foxincloud.com/download.php> for free
Le 20/03/2019 à 06:45, Kurt at VR-FX a écrit :
> Hello there folks,
> I'm looking to get some feedback from the hive mind of this group.
> And, I will admit, I'm doing this kind of last minute. Too many things
> going on lately, and I have not had a chance to do my true due
> diligence! Such as thorough research via prior postings in this forum.
>
> So as some of you may already know, I had a first interview for a
> programmer job at UCLA. The second interview is coming up, it's
> supposed to be this Thursday, but I might try to postpone until
> Friday. Too much stuff going on in my life lately, including doing 2
> different part time jobs and an extended relative who passed away
> recently, that's the reason I'm going down to LA for an in-person
> interview, since the last interview I did via Skype.
> It looks like UCLA really wants to move away from Foxpro, as they know
> it's a dead language. But, they want to move to something similar to
> VFP. I suspect its also because the 1 and only programmer there, who's
> been there for like 30 years and may be retiring soon - doesn't want
> to learn something Totally new. And, also wants to minimize the
> transition! They are asking me to propose what I think is the best
> option. They have mentioned several options such as Fox-in-Cloud, the
> Alpha software, and even Servoy. They did not bring up things like
> Lianja, XoJo, or X# the open source X-base language.
>
> I know that Fox-in-Cloud even offers a type of Conversion Assistant -
> which looks really Great! But, once its converted and running in the
> cloud - I'm assuming that making updates to the system actually means
> programming in something that is not actually FoxPro - as I think its
> Javascript & HTML. But, I could be wrong - and am sure Thierry will
> correct me.
>
> There was also some recent discussion on X# which looked like a
> potentially great option. But, I heard that via the last posting - the
> FoxPro version of the code wasn't really ready yet!
>
> They also told me that they have already been working with Alpha SW -
> and in discussions with them for several months. Which makes me think
> they are already leaning towards Alpha. A quick review of old postings
> in this forum did not show a lot of discussion or users of Alpha. It
> would really be great to hear from some Alpha users!
>
> Anyway - any and all input would be greatly appreciated. I've seen
> Numerous discussions about a number of these technologies here in the
> forum over the years. But, honestly - I never truly got involved with
> any of them - until NOW!
>
> Regards,
> Kurt
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]
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> It looks like UCLA really wants to move away from Foxpro, as they know
> it's a dead language. But, they want to move to something similar to
> VFP.
If they want to move to something similar to VFP and minimise the transition then they might as well stay on VFP and possibly FoxInCloud.
Move away from VFP or minimise transition, pick one. Even something like Lianja which supports VFP syntax to a large extent will involve significant retooling. X# isn't there yet for VFP syntax. Servoy is a Java web stack that you code in JavaScript. XoJo is BASIC-like. Don't forget LiveCode while we're at it.
--
Alan Bourke
alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm
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On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 1:45 AM Kurt at VR-FX <vrfx@optonline.net> wrote:
> The second interview is coming up, it's supposed
> to be this Thursday, but I might try to postpone until Friday. Too much
> stuff going on in my life lately, including doing 2 different part time
> jobs and an extended relative who passed away recently,
I'm sympathetic to your situation, but you don't want the wrong interviewer
hearing that you're too busy babysitting parrots to interview for a job.
That's harsh, and you might not want to work for such a jerk, but you don't
want to raise red flags, or even questions, during the interview process,
OTOH, you don't want to work for jerks, either. OTOOH, they're paying
peanuts and desperate for Fox expertise. Your call,
> It looks like UCLA really wants to move away from Foxpro, as they know
> it's a dead language. But, they want to move to something similar to
> VFP.
And that's why they are hiring you. I you have an answer during the
interview, you'd be jumping the gun. "If all you have is a hammer,
everything looks like a nail." Your job should be to learn the app, learn
what it interfaces with, what it gets for inputs and what it needs to
output (PDF, JPEG, XML, JSON, CSV, EBCDIC?) and determine the optimal tool
to do all of that and hopefully minimize the transition. It may be really
easy to migrate the app to FoxXYZ, but if that can't do what they need,
that's useless.
A 30 year's experienced app developer may have some real legacy stuff in
their app, and conversion can be a large undertaking. Along with a parallel
investigation of what the client needs the app to do is an audit of what
the application already does, Whil's Developer Guide went into this in some
detail, and I presented a series of lectures with checklists and software
for an initial audit.
So, the answer to the question on what they should do is to ask what they
want, and what they have? How many lines of code? How many tables? How many
fields? Where's the ERD? How many output documents, reports? Where does the
data come from? Where does it go? What's the IT infrastructure? What kind
of data servers do they support? What kind of maintenance windows are
allowed? Where are the users? How do they access the data: PCs, laptops on
the road, tablets, phones, embedded in other services? How responsive does
the app have to be? What happens in case of failure? What's the backup
strategy? What's the disaster recovery plan?
I suspect its also because the 1 and only programmer there, who's
> been there for like 30 years and may be retiring soon - doesn't want to
> learn something Totally new. And, also wants to minimize the transition!
>
It's likely your job is to learn everything the old Obi-Wan knows and
become the new master. Realistically (and perhaps this isn't an interview
topic), you'll keep the old app running for some time as you transition the
data model, the business model, the services model and the interface(s) to
the new platform.
> They are asking me to propose what I think is the best option.
When a consultant tells me they have the solution to all of my business
needs by replacing a 30-year-old system with whatever they are selling, on
the first meeting, sight-unseen, I would be rightfully skeptical.
The right answer is that they need to let you learn the app and research
the right solution. If you can convince them you are knowlegeable about
what is available, and what the issues are that need to be addressed in a
migration, then they should hire you to do your job.
There are a lot of good resources out there, like this list, the FoxWiki,
books, whitepapers, but you will need to do the footwork. See if you can
convince them to pay you to do that.
--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
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On Mar 20, 2019, at 6:28 AM, Ted Roche <tedroche@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It looks like UCLA really wants to move away from Foxpro, as they know
>> it's a dead language. But, they want to move to something similar to
>> VFP.
>
> And that's why they are hiring you. I you have an answer during the
> interview, you'd be jumping the gun. "If all you have is a hammer,
> everything looks like a nail." Your job should be to learn the app, learn
> what it interfaces with, what it gets for inputs and what it needs to
> output (PDF, JPEG, XML, JSON, CSV, EBCDIC?) and determine the optimal tool
> to do all of that and hopefully minimize the transition. It may be really
> easy to migrate the app to FoxXYZ, but if that can't do what they need,
> that's useless.
I would echo everything Ted brings up. A 30-year-old app will have many layers of functionality, and probably does a bunch of things that most people who use it don’t know about, but one or two people absolutely rely upon.
The main perspective I would add is that you should ask them if they want to keep it as it has been, or if they want to create something that will last for the next 30 years. During my career as a consultant, there were many times that I was brought in to make a particular change the customer wanted. Instead of just saying “Sure, I can do that!”, I would probe a bit. I’d ask them *why* they feel they need this change. I would ask them if there were any other parts of the system that they felt didn’t do just what they needed. Once you get them talking, listen! They thought they knew what they wanted, but almost always I was able to discern their true needs. When a plan to implement those needs was presented to them, they were usually so excited that any questions about my rate were forgotten.
And I’m sure you know what I’m going to suggest next: if they truly want an app that will take them through the next 30 years, don’t keep it in VFP. If they think finding people who know VFP is hard now… well, the situation isn’t going to get any better over time. And it would be unethical for you to advise them on a path that may be good for you but hurt them in the long run.
To sum up: tell them you will need to take the time to learn just what is needed from the app, both in current functionality and future capabilities, and then and only then could you suggest a path forward. That path should involve a programming language (or languages) that have a strong likelihood of being active for the next decade or two.
Take this as a personal opportunity to learn and grow your skillset. I never get tired of learning a new language or a new way of doing things. That, to me, is the hallmark of a true developer.
-- Ed Leafe
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On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:28 AM Ted Roche <tedroche@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> They are asking me to propose what I think is the best option.
>
>
>
>
And I want to go back and hammer on this point one more time: they are
asking you to tell them, for free, what they should spend the next decade
doing. They are asking for consulting for free. They may not even have a
guy that's retiring, they just want 30 experts to come in and tell them,
FOR FREE, what they should be doing next. Then, they can send the
30-years-experience guy to school for the new thing, and look how much
money they save!
No work on spec.
YOUR job , in the interview, is to convince them that you are the person
qualified to work for them to answer that question. You show them that by
asking more questions about the application than they can answer to show
that you see the need to plan ahead, analyse the situation, research and
design the optimal solution. Prove that you are qualified in the interview.
Then, they can hire you to solve their problems.
As a consultant, I have had to fall back to the line that "I can only give
advice as part of client-consultant contractual relationship."
--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
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This sounds like a set-up type of question.
I would go in with the knowledge that they want to step away from VFP. I
wouldn't give them a "with what" before you had the time to learn what it
does as well as what the owners want it to do. This position is in
academia and they have an attitude about how things should go. Are they
looking to go totally open source and do they want to operate in the cloud?
My take on this is that they don't a rats ass if the program is in another
version of X-Base, they just want it to work.
There should be no problem for making the interview.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 12:45 AM Kurt at VR-FX <vrfx@optonline.net> wrote:
> Hello there folks,
> I'm looking to get some feedback from the hive mind of this group. And,
> I will admit, I'm doing this kind of last minute. Too many things going
> on lately, and I have not had a chance to do my true due diligence! Such
> as thorough research via prior postings in this forum.
>
> So as some of you may already know, I had a first interview for a
> programmer job at UCLA. The second interview is coming up, it's supposed
> to be this Thursday, but I might try to postpone until Friday. Too much
> stuff going on in my life lately, including doing 2 different part time
> jobs and an extended relative who passed away recently, that's the
> reason I'm going down to LA for an in-person interview, since the last
> interview I did via Skype.
> It looks like UCLA really wants to move away from Foxpro, as they know
> it's a dead language. But, they want to move to something similar to
> VFP. I suspect its also because the 1 and only programmer there, who's
> been there for like 30 years and may be retiring soon - doesn't want to
> learn something Totally new. And, also wants to minimize the transition!
> They are asking me to propose what I think is the best option. They have
> mentioned several options such as Fox-in-Cloud, the Alpha software, and
> even Servoy. They did not bring up things like Lianja, XoJo, or X# the
> open source X-base language.
>
> I know that Fox-in-Cloud even offers a type of Conversion Assistant -
> which looks really Great! But, once its converted and running in the
> cloud - I'm assuming that making updates to the system actually means
> programming in something that is not actually FoxPro - as I think its
> Javascript & HTML. But, I could be wrong - and am sure Thierry will
> correct me.
>
> There was also some recent discussion on X# which looked like a
> potentially great option. But, I heard that via the last posting - the
> FoxPro version of the code wasn't really ready yet!
>
> They also told me that they have already been working with Alpha SW -
> and in discussions with them for several months. Which makes me think
> they are already leaning towards Alpha. A quick review of old postings
> in this forum did not show a lot of discussion or users of Alpha. It
> would really be great to hear from some Alpha users!
>
> Anyway - any and all input would be greatly appreciated. I've seen
> Numerous discussions about a number of these technologies here in the
> forum over the years. But, honestly - I never truly got involved with
> any of them - until NOW!
>
> Regards,
> Kurt
>
>
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I agree with all of your points, Ted. They want to move to something and
they are not forthcoming in the entirety of the why change.
Is it to get rid of the other guy who may be a great coder as well as a
great PITA? Is there a new directive within all of IT to embrace modern
technology?
Are they really looking for an Architect to lead the product into Angular
and python type of app that they can point to?
On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 8:30 AM Ted Roche <tedroche@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:28 AM Ted Roche <tedroche@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >> They are asking me to propose what I think is the best option.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> And I want to go back and hammer on this point one more time: they are
> asking you to tell them, for free, what they should spend the next decade
> doing. They are asking for consulting for free. They may not even have a
> guy that's retiring, they just want 30 experts to come in and tell them,
> FOR FREE, what they should be doing next. Then, they can send the
> 30-years-experience guy to school for the new thing, and look how much
> money they save!
>
> No work on spec.
>
> YOUR job , in the interview, is to convince them that you are the person
> qualified to work for them to answer that question. You show them that by
> asking more questions about the application than they can answer to show
> that you see the need to plan ahead, analyse the situation, research and
> design the optimal solution. Prove that you are qualified in the interview.
> Then, they can hire you to solve their problems.
>
> As a consultant, I have had to fall back to the line that "I can only give
> advice as part of client-consultant contractual relationship."
>
> --
> Ted Roche
> Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
>
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
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> ---
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]
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On 03/20/19 1:45 AM, Kurt at VR-FX wrote:
> I know that Fox-in-Cloud even offers a type of Conversion Assistant -
> which looks really Great! But, once its converted and running in the
> cloud - I'm assuming that making updates to the system actually means
> programming in something that is not actually FoxPro - as I think its
> Javascript & HTML. But, I could be wrong - and am sure Thierry will
> correct me.
I don't actually use Fox-in-Cloud, but doesn't the developer often post
in here? Or you could ask them directly on their website?
Good luck! Knock 'em dead!
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