TL;DR: What are your criteria and recommendations for a development laptop?
I'm in the market for a replacement development latop, and would
welcome your thoughts on what your criteria are for a machine.
I'm in the market for a new machine and haven't found the perfect one
yet. Nearly all of my machines were Dell or IBM/Lenovo Business-Class
machines, Latitudes or Thinkpads, occasionally an engineering
workstation. I'm hoping to locate a refurb for a lot less than top
dollar, what with increasing power and lowering prices. If you have,
I'd like to hear what you picked and why. Here are my criteria, some
essential, some nice-to-have. I'd be curious what yours are.
15.6" screen -- 14's too small for old eyes and 17" too big to lug around
1920x1080 resolution: lots of real estate to arrange windows,
typically I'm working on the lap, no external display. Also the rare
DVD movie. No need for 3-D as I'm not a gamer, and I'd prefer plain
old simple 2-D snappy graphics (Intel 4x00-5x00) to nVidia or other
non-FOSS solution.
Keyboard: good key travel and spacing. I type for a living, 80 wpm,
lots of code, debugging, and email and documentation and even the
occasional book. Not religious about it, but Pointer Stick is pretty
awesome, and older ThinkPad trackpad/real button combos are incredibly
easy to use. Lenovo made a major screw-up in cost-reducing the
ThinkPads by messing with the touchpad and removing the extra
buttons/LEDS - volume, caps lock light, status lights, etc, and the
main reason I'm shopping around instead of adding the eighth ThinkPad
to the shop.
Rugged, rugged, rugged: I make money by using a machine that works.
All of the time. For years. We have an office of old thinkpads stacked
away, for "just in case" and nearly all of them still work. The
machine I'm on, a T60, is 8 years old and still a great machine.
Re-installing an OS and all the apps and preferences and keys and
repositories is a waste of time and always happens when the client
needs something right now. This is the cost justification for spending
$$$.
RAM: so cheap these days its doesn't make sense not to have 16 Gb.
Could live with 8.
HDD: not all that important, as nearly everything we run is mirrored
on the LAN and backed-up to the internet.
DVD: sometimes you just gotta burn a disk. I'd prefer it internal,
even though it will be used 10 times in the course of ownership,
since the "Rugged" requirement above means I'm going to get a tough
case with room to spare anyway. Nice to have. Not essential, since
externals have gotten reasonable and interconnection feasible.
OS: my clients use Windows and I have no choice but to provide some
level of support. The primary OS will be Linux, since that's what all
the web sites I run will be in, but there will have to a Windows
alternative OS, either as a VM (preferred) or to boot into. Since I've
already got two OSes in the mix, I really think this disqualifies
Apple as a contender, but I'm open to argument. Ditto for Chromebook,
although I'm tempted to stretch for the Chromebook Pixel.
Use case: I think things up and I type them down. I spend half my life
in a web browser, the other half writing code in a bash terminal,
either local or remote. My local machine typically runs Apache,
PostgreSQL, MariaDB, and I've got subsets of test data for various
client projects. All code is in Git. For support, I'm ssh'ing and/or
RDP'ing into remote machines. A staging machine is elsewhere on the
LAN where I might support large datasets. Typically little processing
on the main machine. So, I guess the truth is that the machine is just
a repository for ssh keys, hard-to-install fonts, and vim
configurations :)
Contestants: typical machines I'm considering include:
Lenovo Thinkpad T540p: 4th gen i5, 500 Gb HDD keyboard, trackpad are
problemmatic. Refurb, $660, plus I'd add $100 worth of memory. The 550
has a better trackpad, but only available new, at at $400 additional
premium.
Dell Latitude E5540: 4th Gen i5, 16 Gb RAM, $890 at Dell Outlet
System 76 gazelle: i5, 16Gb, 500 HDD, $1033 - Ubuntu pre-installed,
would need to get Win7 license, likely ActionPack or OEM. Or $1082
with their discounted i7.
So, congrats on making it to the end of my rant. Tell me what you look
for in a development machine, what I might have missed, and what you
recommend.
--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
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Hey Ted, I read your whole thing but am only going to say a couple
specific things:
1) The System76 gazelle is an awesome machine except for one huge thing
and one thing to be aware of.
The huge thing:the keyboard is garbage. My K key only hits half the
time, the keys are spaced weird including a right-shift key that's hard
to hit, the keys don't travel far enough for my liking, etc.
I mitigated this by purchasing a happy hacker keyboard which by the way
after a couple weeks getting used to it is the BEST KEYBOARD EVER. I cut
and painted a thin board and I just put the keyboard on top of my
system76 keyboard and it isn't too hard to travel with, set up and use
on the train, etc.
The minor thing: they don't install the Ubuntu LTS versions by default,
they install the latest version by default. It's a drop-down on the
order screen but easy to miss.
2) Forgot the second thing.
I used a Lenovo T40 for a couple years and liked it at first but the
keyboard ended up not taking my heavy hitting very well. I also have
been using MacBook and MacBook Pro's for the past decade and I think
these keyboards are pretty crappy too to be honest, too much space
between the keys and not enough travel, and they start busting after
about 5 years. But, they can be gotten used to and used effectively.
Paul
On 5/18/15 4:32 AM, Ted Roche wrote:
> TL;DR: What are your criteria and recommendations for a development laptop?
>
> I'm in the market for a replacement development latop, and would
> welcome your thoughts on what your criteria are for a machine.
>
> I'm in the market for a new machine and haven't found the perfect one
> yet. Nearly all of my machines were Dell or IBM/Lenovo Business-Class
> machines, Latitudes or Thinkpads, occasionally an engineering
> workstation. I'm hoping to locate a refurb for a lot less than top
> dollar, what with increasing power and lowering prices. If you have,
> I'd like to hear what you picked and why. Here are my criteria, some
> essential, some nice-to-have. I'd be curious what yours are.
>
> 15.6" screen -- 14's too small for old eyes and 17" too big to lug around
> 1920x1080 resolution: lots of real estate to arrange windows,
> typically I'm working on the lap, no external display. Also the rare
> DVD movie. No need for 3-D as I'm not a gamer, and I'd prefer plain
> old simple 2-D snappy graphics (Intel 4x00-5x00) to nVidia or other
> non-FOSS solution.
>
> Keyboard: good key travel and spacing. I type for a living, 80 wpm,
> lots of code, debugging, and email and documentation and even the
> occasional book. Not religious about it, but Pointer Stick is pretty
> awesome, and older ThinkPad trackpad/real button combos are incredibly
> easy to use. Lenovo made a major screw-up in cost-reducing the
> ThinkPads by messing with the touchpad and removing the extra
> buttons/LEDS - volume, caps lock light, status lights, etc, and the
> main reason I'm shopping around instead of adding the eighth ThinkPad
> to the shop.
>
> Rugged, rugged, rugged: I make money by using a machine that works.
> All of the time. For years. We have an office of old thinkpads stacked
> away, for "just in case" and nearly all of them still work. The
> machine I'm on, a T60, is 8 years old and still a great machine.
> Re-installing an OS and all the apps and preferences and keys and
> repositories is a waste of time and always happens when the client
> needs something right now. This is the cost justification for spending
> $$$.
>
> RAM: so cheap these days its doesn't make sense not to have 16 Gb.
> Could live with 8.
>
> HDD: not all that important, as nearly everything we run is mirrored
> on the LAN and backed-up to the internet.
>
> DVD: sometimes you just gotta burn a disk. I'd prefer it internal,
> even though it will be used 10 times in the course of ownership,
> since the "Rugged" requirement above means I'm going to get a tough
> case with room to spare anyway. Nice to have. Not essential, since
> externals have gotten reasonable and interconnection feasible.
>
> OS: my clients use Windows and I have no choice but to provide some
> level of support. The primary OS will be Linux, since that's what all
> the web sites I run will be in, but there will have to a Windows
> alternative OS, either as a VM (preferred) or to boot into. Since I've
> already got two OSes in the mix, I really think this disqualifies
> Apple as a contender, but I'm open to argument. Ditto for Chromebook,
> although I'm tempted to stretch for the Chromebook Pixel.
>
> Use case: I think things up and I type them down. I spend half my life
> in a web browser, the other half writing code in a bash terminal,
> either local or remote. My local machine typically runs Apache,
> PostgreSQL, MariaDB, and I've got subsets of test data for various
> client projects. All code is in Git. For support, I'm ssh'ing and/or
> RDP'ing into remote machines. A staging machine is elsewhere on the
> LAN where I might support large datasets. Typically little processing
> on the main machine. So, I guess the truth is that the machine is just
> a repository for ssh keys, hard-to-install fonts, and vim
> configurations :)
>
> Contestants: typical machines I'm considering include:
>
> Lenovo Thinkpad T540p: 4th gen i5, 500 Gb HDD keyboard, trackpad are
> problemmatic. Refurb, $660, plus I'd add $100 worth of memory. The 550
> has a better trackpad, but only available new, at at $400 additional
> premium.
>
> Dell Latitude E5540: 4th Gen i5, 16 Gb RAM, $890 at Dell Outlet
>
> System 76 gazelle: i5, 16Gb, 500 HDD, $1033 - Ubuntu pre-installed,
> would need to get Win7 license, likely ActionPack or OEM. Or $1082
> with their discounted i7.
>
> So, congrats on making it to the end of my rant. Tell me what you look
> for in a development machine, what I might have missed, and what you
> recommend.
>
>
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Hey Ted,
I made it thru - although I wouldn't consider it a Rant. You made me chuckle with the Contestants reference.
I'm also looking for a laptop - and I am even considering a Refurb, as you mentioned. Although - yeah - I need decent 3D - since I'm mainly doing 3D on it - and e-mails. So, keyboard has to be decent for doing e-mails. But, even the 3D graphics doesn't have to be Super-horse power. My 3D these days is all for prototyping - which doesn't get as Hi-Poly as regular 3D design for animation.
I hadn't heard about a Dell Outlet before. Is it a physical store - or an extension of their regular website?
I'd also be interested in getting people's feedback on the Intel i3 vs. i5 vs. i7! I know i7 is top-of-the-line chips, for the most part. But, are i3's that bad - vs. say an i5? I know in the old days - they cut or don't connect a single circuit on a regular Intel chip to make it a Celeron vs. regular Intel chip. I've even seen new Celerons for sale. Is an i3 like that - basically cut down and less power than an i5?
Sorry if I am hi-jacking your Thread too much Ted - but, since I'm also in the market for a new laptop - I figured a couple extra Q's on here wouldn't hurt too much...
-K-
-----Original Message-----
...Contestants: typical machines I'm considering include:
Lenovo Thinkpad T540p: 4th gen i5, 500 Gb HDD keyboard, trackpad are problemmatic. Refurb, $660, plus I'd add $100 worth of memory. The 550 has a better trackpad, but only available new, at at $400 additional premium.
Dell Latitude E5540: 4th Gen i5, 16 Gb RAM, $890 at Dell Outlet
System 76 gazelle: i5, 16Gb, 500 HDD, $1033 - Ubuntu pre-installed, would need to get Win7 license, likely ActionPack or OEM. Or $1082 with their discounted i7.
So, congrats on making it to the end of my rant. Tell me what you look for in a development machine, what I might have missed, and what you recommend.
--
Ted Roche
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Author: Dave Crozier
Posted: 2015-05-18 08:43:33 Link
I found the difference between an i3 and i5 is massive whereas the difference from a i5 to i5 is not that great, unless of course you have software that can really use the additional cores.
As I have said on a few occasions on here, I wouldn't swap my 13" i7 Macbook Pro with 16Gb for anything as a development machine (running Win 7 on a VM using VxFusion). I love the backlit keyboard and the intuitive touchpad gestures that make standard laptops feel antiquated by comparison. My only gripe is that you can't update the internal memory like the old Macbook pro's so if you buy one then you are stuck with the memory you inherit forever! Having said that, 16Gb of Mac memory still performs like 32Gb of regular PC memory - or at least it feels like it. Also, in FxFusion, the graphics performance in the VM has come on leaps and bounds in version 10 from that in V6 which wasn't that long ago.
Damnit ... I think I'm becoming a Fanboi! How sad! Yes it was expensive, but the applecare warranty means that in 2 years it will still be a saleable machine should I want to get rid of it.
Only retrospective change I would make would be the 15" screen as opposed to the 13" model, but seeing as how I run an external monitor on it most of the time, then it isn't an issue.
Also the switching between virtual screens/sessions is seamless and makes the smaller screen workable with lots of concurrent apps.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Wendt
Sent: 18 May 2015 14:29
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: RE: [NF] Recomendations for a developer laptop
Hey Ted,
I made it thru - although I wouldn't consider it a Rant. You made me chuckle with the Contestants reference.
I'm also looking for a laptop - and I am even considering a Refurb, as you mentioned. Although - yeah - I need decent 3D - since I'm mainly doing 3D on it - and e-mails. So, keyboard has to be decent for doing e-mails. But, even the 3D graphics doesn't have to be Super-horse power. My 3D these days is all for prototyping - which doesn't get as Hi-Poly as regular 3D design for animation.
I hadn't heard about a Dell Outlet before. Is it a physical store - or an extension of their regular website?
I'd also be interested in getting people's feedback on the Intel i3 vs. i5 vs. i7! I know i7 is top-of-the-line chips, for the most part. But, are i3's that bad - vs. say an i5? I know in the old days - they cut or don't connect a single circuit on a regular Intel chip to make it a Celeron vs. regular Intel chip. I've even seen new Celerons for sale. Is an i3 like that - basically cut down and less power than an i5?
Sorry if I am hi-jacking your Thread too much Ted - but, since I'm also in the market for a new laptop - I figured a couple extra Q's on here wouldn't hurt too much...
-K-
-----Original Message-----
...Contestants: typical machines I'm considering include:
Lenovo Thinkpad T540p: 4th gen i5, 500 Gb HDD keyboard, trackpad are problemmatic. Refurb, $660, plus I'd add $100 worth of memory. The 550 has a better trackpad, but only available new, at at $400 additional premium.
Dell Latitude E5540: 4th Gen i5, 16 Gb RAM, $890 at Dell Outlet
System 76 gazelle: i5, 16Gb, 500 HDD, $1033 - Ubuntu pre-installed, would need to get Win7 license, likely ActionPack or OEM. Or $1082 with their discounted i7.
So, congrats on making it to the end of my rant. Tell me what you look for in a development machine, what I might have missed, and what you recommend.
--
Ted Roche
[excessive quoting removed by server]
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Author: Stephen Russell
Posted: 2015-05-18 08:50:06 Link
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:43 AM, Dave Crozier <DaveC@flexipol.co.uk> wrote:
> I found the difference between an i3 and i5 is massive whereas the
> difference from a i5 to i5 is not that great, unless of course you have
> software that can really use the additional cores.
> ---------------
Have a Dell i7 Precision M4800
16 gig of ram is one of the best laptops I have ever used.
--
Stephen Russell
Sr. Analyst
Ring Container Technology
Oakland TN
901.246-0159 cell
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Thanks for the input Dave. Although I suspect you meant that the difference between the i5 and i7 is not that great. And, yes - the SW I use can indeed take advantage of multiple cores - as it was one of the programs on the market that could take advantage of multiple cores from VERY early on! (I actually have a VERY Old DELL at home that has TWO Pentium 300 Mhz chips in it!)
But, no - would never consider a Mac - since 3DS Max is not available on a Mac - and I would certainly not run it on an emulator - just not very viable when you talk about 3D CG SW.
Thanks again,
-K-
-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Dave Crozier
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 9:44 AM
To: profoxtech@leafe.com
Subject: RE: [NF] Recomendations for a developer laptop
I found the difference between an i3 and i5 is massive whereas the difference from a i5 to i5 is not that great, unless of course you have software that can really use the additional cores.
As I have said on a few occasions on here, I wouldn't swap my 13" i7 Macbook Pro with 16Gb for anything as a development machine (running Win 7 on a VM using VxFusion). I love the backlit keyboard and the intuitive touchpad gestures that make standard laptops feel antiquated by comparison. My only gripe is that you can't update the internal memory like the old Macbook pro's so if you buy one then you are stuck with the memory you inherit forever! Having said that, 16Gb of Mac memory still performs like 32Gb of regular PC memory - or at least it feels like it. Also, in FxFusion, the graphics performance in the VM has come on leaps and bounds in version 10 from that in V6 which wasn't that long ago.
Damnit ... I think I'm becoming a Fanboi! How sad! Yes it was expensive, but the applecare warranty means that in 2 years it will still be a saleable machine should I want to get rid of it.
Only retrospective change I would make would be the 15" screen as opposed to the 13" model, but seeing as how I run an external monitor on it most of the time, then it isn't an issue.
Also the switching between virtual screens/sessions is seamless and makes the smaller screen workable with lots of concurrent apps.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Wendt
Sent: 18 May 2015 14:29
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: RE: [NF] Recomendations for a developer laptop
Hey Ted,
I made it thru - although I wouldn't consider it a Rant. You made me chuckle with the Contestants reference.
I'm also looking for a laptop - and I am even considering a Refurb, as you mentioned. Although - yeah - I need decent 3D - since I'm mainly doing 3D on it - and e-mails. So, keyboard has to be decent for doing e-mails. But, even the 3D graphics doesn't have to be Super-horse power. My 3D these days is all for prototyping - which doesn't get as Hi-Poly as regular 3D design for animation.
I hadn't heard about a Dell Outlet before. Is it a physical store - or an extension of their regular website?
I'd also be interested in getting people's feedback on the Intel i3 vs. i5 vs. i7! I know i7 is top-of-the-line chips, for the most part. But, are i3's that bad - vs. say an i5? I know in the old days - they cut or don't connect a single circuit on a regular Intel chip to make it a Celeron vs. regular Intel chip. I've even seen new Celerons for sale. Is an i3 like that - basically cut down and less power than an i5?
Sorry if I am hi-jacking your Thread too much Ted - but, since I'm also in the market for a new laptop - I figured a couple extra Q's on here wouldn't hurt too much...
-K-
-----Original Message-----
...Contestants: typical machines I'm considering include:
Lenovo Thinkpad T540p: 4th gen i5, 500 Gb HDD keyboard, trackpad are problemmatic. Refurb, $660, plus I'd add $100 worth of memory. The 550 has a better trackpad, but only available new, at at $400 additional premium.
Dell Latitude E5540: 4th Gen i5, 16 Gb RAM, $890 at Dell Outlet
System 76 gazelle: i5, 16Gb, 500 HDD, $1033 - Ubuntu pre-installed, would need to get Win7 license, likely ActionPack or OEM. Or $1082 with their discounted i7.
So, congrats on making it to the end of my rant. Tell me what you look for in a development machine, what I might have missed, and what you recommend.
--
Ted Roche
[excessive quoting removed by server]
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On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 7:46 AM, Paul McNett <paul@mcnettware.com> wrote:
> 1) The System76 gazelle is an awesome machine except for one huge thing and
> one thing to be aware of.
>
> The huge thing:the keyboard is garbage. My K key only hits half the time,
> the keys are spaced weird including a right-shift key that's hard to hit,
> the keys don't travel far enough for my liking, etc.
Great feedback! Touch-typing is very important to me, so a poor
keyboard is a poor laptop.
> I mitigated this by purchasing a happy hacker keyboard which by the way
> after a couple weeks getting used to it is the BEST KEYBOARD EVER. I cut and
> painted a thin board and I just put the keyboard on top of my system76
> keyboard and it isn't too hard to travel with, set up and use on the train,
> etc.
That must be quite a sight! Glad you worked out a good solution.
--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
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On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Kurt Wendt <Kurt_Wendt@globetax.com> wrote:
>
> I'm also looking for a laptop - and I am even considering a Refurb, as you mentioned. Although - yeah - I need decent 3D - since I'm mainly doing 3D on it - and e-mails. So, keyboard has to be decent for doing e-mails. But, even the 3D graphics doesn't have to be Super-horse power. My 3D these days is all for prototyping - which doesn't get as Hi-Poly as regular 3D design for animation.
>
> I hadn't heard about a Dell Outlet before. Is it a physical store - or an extension of their regular website?
http://outlet.dell.com or dell.com/outlet, or search "Outlet" from the
home page.
Most of the manufacturers have such a site. They get back demos,
scratched cases, store returns, and run them through an inspection and
restore them to OEM condition, usually with a decent though reduced
warranty. At 60 - 100% of the retail price. You can find bargains. You
can find turkeys. Caveat Emptor, as the Romans said, Buyer Beware.
> I'd also be interested in getting people's feedback on the Intel i3 vs. i5 vs. i7
Fast cheap and slightly unfair: i3 is the underpowered Celeron, i5 is
the workman dual core, i7 is the high-end 4-core, though not as high
end as the Xeon, and it really shines if the software knows how to use
it, otherwise, not so different from the i5 for most day-to-day use.
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On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Dave Crozier <DaveC@flexipol.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Damnit ... I think I'm becoming a Fanboi! How sad! Yes it was expensive, but the applecare warranty means that in 2 years it will still be a saleable machine should I want to get rid of it.
While there are some questions on their QA lately, and they do try too
hard to lock you in, Apple does make a beautifully designed machine.
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On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Stephen Russell <srussell705@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have a Dell i7 Precision M4800
>
> 16 gig of ram is one of the best laptops I have ever used.
>
My partner got the Precision M6800, loaded i7 16 Gb, the 17" model.
The first refurb we got was a repair nightmare: internal display went,
bad parts from Dell, twice, but Dell finally swapped it out,
completely at their expense, including return shipping. No happy about
the hours we lost, but can't complain about that service. Oddball
parts, we think, on the first custom-built one. The replacement has
been rock-solid.
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