I mentioned before that a customer of mine has critical data stored on a
web site and currently subscribes to that web site. It is case
information and documents for a funeral home. The company said they
would provide an export of the SQL Server tables for $15,000! This is
the funeral home's data and they have to pay $15,000 to get a copy of
it. They will not just give us a backup of the tables.
Does anyone know what options we have?
Should we contact an attorney?
--
Jeff
Jeff Johnson
jeff@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
(623) 582-0323
SMS (602) 717-5476
Fax 623-869-0675
www.san-dc.com
www.cremationtracker.com
www.agentrelationshipmanager.com
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Hi, Jeff
Some thoughts on your situation:
1. Does client have any other backup of the data? How often/how old?
2. Is the system accessing the data in VFP? If not, what?
3. If you have a VFP program that can access the SQL, you can write a data dump program for a hell of a lot less than $15k!
4. If you don't already have a VFP program that can access the SQL, you can still write one for less than $15k.
5. Seems to me it's your customer that should contact the attorney to see what his legal rights are. Not you.
6. Legal action always favors the party with the most money.
7. No matter what you do, you need to find another hosting company. There are lots and lots of them.
You need to know exactly what the agreement between your customer and the hosting company is. How much, how often, and for exactly what services. And who negotiated it? Do you really have a dog in this fight or are you just trying to help?
I think the hosting company is trying to screw your client, but there may not be a whole log of benefit for you in preventing that
(e.g., if the hosting company is run by your client's son-in-law!). I pretty much favor writing a data dump that runs on the client's system, because then it doesn't matter who the hosting company is; you have control.
Dan
----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:48:55 -0700
> From: jeff@san-dc.com
> To: profoxtech@leafe.com
> Subject: [NF] Retrieving Data from a Web Site
>
> I mentioned before that a customer of mine has critical data stored on a
> web site and currently subscribes to that web site. It is case
> information and documents for a funeral home. The company said they
> would provide an export of the SQL Server tables for $15,000! This is
> the funeral home's data and they have to pay $15,000 to get a copy of
> it. They will not just give us a backup of the tables.
>
> Does anyone know what options we have?
>
> Should we contact an attorney?
>
> --
> Jeff
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On 12/18/2014 5:21 PM, Dan Covill wrote:
> Hi, Jeff
>
> Some thoughts on your situation:
> 1. Does client have any other backup of the data? How often/how old?
> 2. Is the system accessing the data in VFP? If not, what?
> 3. If you have a VFP program that can access the SQL, you can write a data dump program for a hell of a lot less than $15k!
> 4. If you don't already have a VFP program that can access the SQL, you can still write one for less than $15k.
> 5. Seems to me it's your customer that should contact the attorney to see what his legal rights are. Not you.
> 6. Legal action always favors the party with the most money.
> 7. No matter what you do, you need to find another hosting company. There are lots and lots of them.
>
> You need to know exactly what the agreement between your customer and the hosting company is. How much, how often, and for exactly what services. And who negotiated it? Do you really have a dog in this fight or are you just trying to help?
>
> I think the hosting company is trying to screw your client, but there may not be a whole log of benefit for you in preventing that
> (e.g., if the hosting company is run by your client's son-in-law!). I pretty much favor writing a data dump that runs on the client's system, because then it doesn't matter who the hosting company is; you have control.
>
> Dan
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:48:55 -0700
>> From: jeff@san-dc.com
>> To: profoxtech@leafe.com
>> Subject: [NF] Retrieving Data from a Web Site
>>
>> I mentioned before that a customer of mine has critical data stored on a
>> web site and currently subscribes to that web site. It is case
>> information and documents for a funeral home. The company said they
>> would provide an export of the SQL Server tables for $15,000! This is
>> the funeral home's data and they have to pay $15,000 to get a copy of
>> it. They will not just give us a backup of the tables.
>>
>> Does anyone know what options we have?
>>
>> Should we contact an attorney?
>>
>> --
>> Jeff
Dan: This is a web application written in (I'm guessing) .NET. When
accessing pages it does not display any URL's. There is no way to
access the data through a browser. The data is in SQL Server but the
application hides their methods.
Thanks,
> --
> Jeff
>
> Jeff Johnson
> jeff@san-dc.com
> SanDC, Inc.
> (623) 582-0323
> SMS (602) 717-5476
> Fax 623-869-0675
>
> www.san-dc.com
> www.cremationtracker.com
> www.agentrelationshipmanager.com
>
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Author: Virgil Bierschwale
Posted: 2014-12-18 18:41:32 Link
I'm just catching this.
I run all my sites on a web server like this.
IF
They can log into their management system, you can download the data
yourself
If they don't know how, contact me offline with their login and password and
I'll get their data if it is available.
-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 6:35 PM
To: profox@leafe.com
Subject: Re: [NF] Retrieving Data from a Web Site
On 12/18/2014 5:21 PM, Dan Covill wrote:
> Hi, Jeff
>
> Some thoughts on your situation:
> 1. Does client have any other backup of the data? How often/how old?
> 2. Is the system accessing the data in VFP? If not, what?
> 3. If you have a VFP program that can access the SQL, you can write a data
dump program for a hell of a lot less than $15k!
> 4. If you don't already have a VFP program that can access the SQL, you
can still write one for less than $15k.
> 5. Seems to me it's your customer that should contact the attorney to see
what his legal rights are. Not you.
> 6. Legal action always favors the party with the most money.
> 7. No matter what you do, you need to find another hosting company. There
are lots and lots of them.
>
> You need to know exactly what the agreement between your customer and the
hosting company is. How much, how often, and for exactly what services.
And who negotiated it? Do you really have a dog in this fight or are you
just trying to help?
>
> I think the hosting company is trying to screw your client, but there
> may not be a whole log of benefit for you in preventing that (e.g., if the
hosting company is run by your client's son-in-law!). I pretty much favor
writing a data dump that runs on the client's system, because then it
doesn't matter who the hosting company is; you have control.
>
> Dan
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:48:55 -0700
>> From: jeff@san-dc.com
>> To: profoxtech@leafe.com
>> Subject: [NF] Retrieving Data from a Web Site
>>
>> I mentioned before that a customer of mine has critical data stored
>> on a web site and currently subscribes to that web site. It is case
>> information and documents for a funeral home. The company said they
>> would provide an export of the SQL Server tables for $15,000! This is
>> the funeral home's data and they have to pay $15,000 to get a copy of
>> it. They will not just give us a backup of the tables.
>>
>> Does anyone know what options we have?
>>
>> Should we contact an attorney?
>>
>> --
>> Jeff
Dan: This is a web application written in (I'm guessing) .NET. When
accessing pages it does not display any URL's. There is no way to access
the data through a browser. The data is in SQL Server but the application
hides their methods.
Thanks,
> --
> Jeff
>
> Jeff Johnson
> jeff@san-dc.com
> SanDC, Inc.
> (623) 582-0323
> SMS (602) 717-5476
> Fax 623-869-0675
>
> www.san-dc.com
> www.cremationtracker.com
> www.agentrelationshipmanager.com
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]
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On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Jeff Johnson <jeff@san-dc.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Dan: This is a web application written in (I'm guessing) .NET.
What makes you think that? Lots of bad apps can be written in Perl or even
Python.
Inspecting the actual page source can give you some good clues.
> When accessing pages it does not display any URL's.
There's a lot of ways to do that, and to undo it, too. If it appears on a
page, it can be copied. Once again, viewing the source can tell you a lot.
However, sometimes it's cheaper to pay someone to type it back in than to
automate it. Paying someone to screen-shot every page and type it into a
new system (via Mechanical Turk, for example) can be very inexpensive. An
alternative to consider, if all else fails.
There is no way to access the data through a browser. The data is in SQL
Server but the application hides their methods.
Your client may be over a barrel. It's worth reviewing his contract with
this site, and getting a lawyer to review. You don't want to go blasting
over their site with a bot if that gives them the right to cancel your
access.
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
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On 12/18/2014 9:00 PM, Ted Roche wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Jeff Johnson <jeff@san-dc.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Dan: This is a web application written in (I'm guessing) .NET.
>
> What makes you think that? Lots of bad apps can be written in Perl or even
> Python.
>
> Inspecting the actual page source can give you some good clues.
>
>> When accessing pages it does not display any URL's.
>
> There's a lot of ways to do that, and to undo it, too. If it appears on a
> page, it can be copied. Once again, viewing the source can tell you a lot.
>
> However, sometimes it's cheaper to pay someone to type it back in than to
> automate it. Paying someone to screen-shot every page and type it into a
> new system (via Mechanical Turk, for example) can be very inexpensive. An
> alternative to consider, if all else fails.
>
> There is no way to access the data through a browser. The data is in SQL
> Server but the application hides their methods.
>
> Your client may be over a barrel. It's worth reviewing his contract with
> this site, and getting a lawyer to review. You don't want to go blasting
> over their site with a bot if that gives them the right to cancel your
> access.
>
> Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
>
Thanks Ted. The code is written in C# and displayed on ASP pages. URL's
in the address bar are hidden and don't change when going from page to page.
I suggested they contact their lawyer. They can get by with just the
documents. Documents are saved on their server in folders. Getting them
would involve a simple copy. We'll see how much they want to charge us
for that.
Thanks,
--
Jeff
Jeff Johnson
jeff@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
(623) 582-0323
SMS (602) 717-5476
Fax 623-869-0675
www.san-dc.com
www.cremationtracker.com
www.agentrelationshipmanager.com
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On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Jeff Johnson <jeff@san-dc.com> wrote:
>
> I mentioned before that a customer of mine has critical data stored on a
> web site and currently subscribes to that web site. It is case information
> and documents for a funeral home. The company said they would provide an
> export of the SQL Server tables for $15,000! This is the funeral home's
> data and they have to pay $15,000 to get a copy of it. They will not just
> give us a backup of the tables.
>
> ---------------------- <http://www.cremationtracker.com>
Are they running a custom app written for them on the net?
Are you planning on rewriting the app in VFP, or are you doing specialized
other reporting perhaps?
--
Stephen Russell
Sr. Analyst
Ring Container Technology
Oakland TN
901.246-0159 cell
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On 12/19/2014 5:44 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Jeff Johnson <jeff@san-dc.com> wrote:
>> I mentioned before that a customer of mine has critical data stored on a
>> web site and currently subscribes to that web site. It is case information
>> and documents for a funeral home. The company said they would provide an
>> export of the SQL Server tables for $15,000! This is the funeral home's
>> data and they have to pay $15,000 to get a copy of it. They will not just
>> give us a backup of the tables.
>>
>> ---------------------- <http://www.cremationtracker.com>
>
>
> Are they running a custom app written for them on the net?
>
> Are you planning on rewriting the app in VFP, or are you doing specialized
> other reporting perhaps?
>
>
They are using a "professional" application built by a major company. I
have already written and installed the VFP application and it is
important to load historical information. Without this data they will
be out of compliance with the laws of Arizona.
--
Jeff
Jeff Johnson
jeff@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
(623) 582-0323
SMS (602) 717-5476
Fax 623-869-0675
www.san-dc.com
www.cremationtracker.com
www.agentrelationshipmanager.com
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Look what we found:
*7. Obligations upon Termination*. Upon expiration or other termination,
all rights granted hereunder shall forthwith terminate, and: (a) XXXX
shall immediately cease to provide Hosting Services to Customer and
Customer shall cease to have any right to use the Software in any
manner; (b) Customer shall make all payments due XXXX as of the date of
termination or expiration in accordance with the payment provisions set
forth in the Agreement and applicable Schedules; (c) XXXX shall provide
an electronic extract copy of the Customer’s Data and upon receipt from
Customer of all outstanding amounts then owing XXXX, shall forward such
Data to Customer electronically or on machine-readable media; and (d)
XXXX may delete all of Customer’s Data in XXXX’ possession and control
and not retain any copies, and, upon written request and receipt of
payment from Customer of all outstanding amounts then owing XXXX, shall
provide certification to Customer that all such Data has been destroyed
and that no copies have been retained by XXXX.
XXXX was bought out by YYYY and YYYY is trying to charge $15,000. There
is no new contract with YYYY.
On 12/18/2014 4:48 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> I mentioned before that a customer of mine has critical data stored on
> a web site and currently subscribes to that web site. It is case
> information and documents for a funeral home. The company said they
> would provide an export of the SQL Server tables for $15,000! This is
> the funeral home's data and they have to pay $15,000 to get a copy of
> it. They will not just give us a backup of the tables.
>
> Does anyone know what options we have?
>
> Should we contact an attorney?
>
--
Jeff
Jeff Johnson
jeff@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
(623) 582-0323
SMS (602) 717-5476
Fax 623-869-0675
www.san-dc.com
www.cremationtracker.com
www.agentrelationshipmanager.com
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Boy, that'd be a Maloox Moment(tm) hoping that they honor this agreement
when you've terminated their service.
Even though this is a SPA (Single Page Application), I might script
something that simulates walking through each record of your data and
does a dump of the page. You can then later parse through the data and
manipulate it into INSERT statements into some sort of data source such
as VFP, PostgreSQL, MySQL, etc.
It might be nice to have this ahead of time so that you have a system
ready to go to keep business running.
Good luck. I hate being held hostage by a proprietary system. Or a
system where you can't get your data at least.
On 12/19/2014 09:22 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> Look what we found:
>
> *7. Obligations upon Termination*. Upon expiration or other
> termination, all rights granted hereunder shall forthwith terminate,
> and: (a) XXXX shall immediately cease to provide Hosting Services to
> Customer and Customer shall cease to have any right to use the
> Software in any manner; (b) Customer shall make all payments due XXXX
> as of the date of termination or expiration in accordance with the
> payment provisions set forth in the Agreement and applicable
> Schedules; (c) XXXX shall provide an electronic extract copy of the
> Customer’s Data and upon receipt from Customer of all outstanding
> amounts then owing XXXX, shall forward such Data to Customer
> electronically or on machine-readable media; and (d) XXXX may delete
> all of Customer’s Data in XXXX’ possession and control and not retain
> any copies, and, upon written request and receipt of payment from
> Customer of all outstanding amounts then owing XXXX, shall provide
> certification to Customer that all such Data has been destroyed and
> that no copies have been retained by XXXX.
>
> XXXX was bought out by YYYY and YYYY is trying to charge $15,000.
> There is no new contract with YYYY.
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