Index
2016-03-28 08:31Ken Dibble : [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-28 09:16Tracy Pearson : RE: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-28 09:37Ted Roche : Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-28 09:45Stephen Russell : Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-28 10:49Kurt Wendt : RE: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-29 11:40Ken Dibble : RE: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-29 12:36Ted Roche : Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-29 13:18Ken Dibble : Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-29 14:12Ted Roche : Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
2016-03-29 15:24Charles Hart Enzer, M.D. : Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling
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[NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Ken Dibble

Posted: 2016-03-28 08:31:57   Link

Hi folks,

If anyone here has worked with VoIP PBX systems (after all, I'm told,

it's "just a computer"), can you answer this question?

Is it an "industry standard" for these systems to fail to pass

through basic signaling from the PSTN (public switched telephone

network) to the ears of people using the phones?

We recently purchased such a system and, while it transmit a

"ringing" signal when we dial a number outside our system, it does

not transmit "busy" signals when the line we dialed is engaged. It

also does not transmit fax tones when we dial a fax number (useful

for diagnosing faxing problems), nor does it transmit recorded audio

from a phone company, such as "The number you have reached is no

longer in service" (useful for what should be obvious reasons).

The vendor claims that our expectations that a PBX phone system

should do these things are unrealistic, and that if we want it fixed,

we should pay for "support".

My contention is that these failures are product defects that should

be repaired under warranty.

What is your experience on these things?

Thank you very much.

Ken Dibble

www.stic-cil.org

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RE: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Tracy Pearson

Posted: 2016-03-28 09:16:25   Link

Ken Dibble wrote on 2016-03-28:

> Hi folks,

>

> If anyone here has worked with VoIP PBX systems (after all, I'm told,

> it's "just a computer"), can you answer this question?

>

> Is it an "industry standard" for these systems to fail to pass

> through basic signaling from the PSTN (public switched telephone

> network) to the ears of people using the phones?

>

> We recently purchased such a system and, while it transmit a

> "ringing" signal when we dial a number outside our system, it does

> not transmit "busy" signals when the line we dialed is engaged. It

> also does not transmit fax tones when we dial a fax number (useful

> for diagnosing faxing problems), nor does it transmit recorded audio

> from a phone company, such as "The number you have reached is no

> longer in service" (useful for what should be obvious reasons).

>

> The vendor claims that our expectations that a PBX phone system

> should do these things are unrealistic, and that if we want it fixed,

> we should pay for "support".

>

> My contention is that these failures are product defects that should

> be repaired under warranty.

>

> What is your experience on these things?

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> Ken Dibble

> www.stic-cil.org

>

Ken,

I don't know if our system is a VOIP PBX. I do know our phones are VOIP, and

it is a box in our computer room.

We get busy signals, out of service messages, and recorded messages about

circuits being busy.

If it never worked, that is a warranty issue. If it used to work, and now

doesn't and no one has changed things on your end, sounds like a codec issue

according to this page:

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/714713-busy-signal-when-dialing-outsi

de-line-or-voicemail-cisco-7960-phone-and-asterisk

You've reached the end of my experience. I do hope you get it worked out.

Tracy Pearson

PowerChurch Software

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Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Ted Roche

Posted: 2016-03-28 09:37:17   Link

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

>

> Is it an "industry standard" for these systems to fail to pass through basic

> signaling from the PSTN (public switched telephone network) to the ears of

> people using the phones?

>

> We recently purchased such a system and, while it transmit a "ringing"

> signal when we dial a number outside our system, it does not transmit "busy"

> signals when the line we dialed is engaged. It also does not transmit fax

> tones when we dial a fax number (useful for diagnosing faxing problems), nor

> does it transmit recorded audio from a phone company, such as "The number

> you have reached is no longer in service" (useful for what should be obvious

> reasons).

>

None of that sounds right. A VOIP/PBX system should have more features

than the old copper circuits, not less.

--

Ted Roche

Ted Roche & Associates, LLC

http://www.tedroche.com

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Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Stephen Russell

Posted: 2016-03-28 09:45:20   Link

Sounds like a false statement from them.

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,

>

> If anyone here has worked with VoIP PBX systems (after all, I'm told, it's

> "just a computer"), can you answer this question?

>

> Is it an "industry standard" for these systems to fail to pass through

> basic signaling from the PSTN (public switched telephone network) to the

> ears of people using the phones?

>

> We recently purchased such a system and, while it transmit a "ringing"

> signal when we dial a number outside our system, it does not transmit

> "busy" signals when the line we dialed is engaged. It also does not

> transmit fax tones when we dial a fax number (useful for diagnosing faxing

> problems), nor does it transmit recorded audio from a phone company, such

> as "The number you have reached is no longer in service" (useful for what

> should be obvious reasons).

>

> The vendor claims that our expectations that a PBX phone system should do

> these things are unrealistic, and that if we want it fixed, we should pay

> for "support".

>

> My contention is that these failures are product defects that should be

> repaired under warranty.

>

> What is your experience on these things?

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> Ken Dibble

> www.stic-cil.org

>

>

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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RE: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Kurt Wendt

Posted: 2016-03-28 10:49:43   Link

Ken - I agree with everyone here. This doesn't sound right - and sounds like they are really screwing you guys over - and then demanding More money to resolve THEIR Own deficiencies!

At my previous job - I know they had a VOIP phone system in the office - it was installed while I worked there. Actually - it's the Dad of my manager - whose co. installed the system. So - if you want - maybe I could get you connected with them - and discuss your issues with them. Then maybe Drop the current jerks and get a New system!

Regards,

Kurt Wendt

Consultant

Tel. +1-212-747-9100

www.GlobeTax.com

-----Original Message-----

From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Russell

Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 10:45 AM

To: profoxtech@leafe.com

Subject: Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Sounds like a false statement from them.

On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 8:31 AM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,

>

> If anyone here has worked with VoIP PBX systems (after all, I'm told,

> it's "just a computer"), can you answer this question?

>

> Is it an "industry standard" for these systems to fail to pass through

> basic signaling from the PSTN (public switched telephone network) to

> the ears of people using the phones?

>

> We recently purchased such a system and, while it transmit a "ringing"

> signal when we dial a number outside our system, it does not transmit

> "busy" signals when the line we dialed is engaged. It also does not

> transmit fax tones when we dial a fax number (useful for diagnosing

> faxing problems), nor does it transmit recorded audio from a phone

> company, such as "The number you have reached is no longer in service"

> (useful for what should be obvious reasons).

>

> The vendor claims that our expectations that a PBX phone system should

> do these things are unrealistic, and that if we want it fixed, we

> should pay for "support".

>

> My contention is that these failures are product defects that should

> be repaired under warranty.

>

> What is your experience on these things?

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> Ken Dibble

> www.stic-cil.org

>

>

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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RE: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Ken Dibble

Posted: 2016-03-29 11:40:18   Link

Thank you to everyone who responded.

I spent most of the day yesterday researching this. I think the

problem is related to implementation of "early media" and SIP Code

183 messaging. We are not using SIP trunks; we are interfacing with

the PSTN via a Level 3 (formerly Time-Warner Telecom) PRI. I think

there is/are a configuration issue(s) related to this messaging

somewhere either in the Level 3 service, the Patton gateway, the 3CX

VoIP software, and/or the YeaLink phones.

This vendor lowballed the bid because, in part, they were not highly

experienced in this type of work. They're a white-box computer and IT

administrative services vendor who only recently got into phone

systems. Ours is, by a few orders of magnitude, the largest phone

installation they've ever done, and they had only done a literal

handful before us. We trusted them because they've been very good on

strictly computer stuff. Their management is failing to accept that

this is different: They did not sell us a server, software, switches

and phones, separately. They sold us a phone *system*, and they are

responsible for all aspects of the system functioning properly.

Digital phone systems are also computers, and some of them, including

the one we just replaced, also have separate hardware and software

components. The fact that VoIP PBX software can run on a Windows

computer does not, IMO, change the "business model" with regard to

the sale of phone systems in any respect. A digital PBX vendor would

immediately accept responsibility for failing to deliver a

properly-configured system and fix it, for no charge.

I suspect that a more experienced provider would understand this

problem and would not have had much difficulty in getting the

configuration(s) done correctly. This vendor, due to inexperience,

underbid the installation labor cost, and underestimated the

difficulty of properly configuring our system, and is now trying to

recoup its losses.

I sympathize with them, but I am not going to pay them to learn how

to design and install phone systems properly.

Ken Dibble

www.stic-cil.org

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Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Ted Roche

Posted: 2016-03-29 12:36:03   Link

I think folks have gotten pretty lackadaisical with "acceptable level

of service" for computers these days. The phone industry operates at a

different level.

I hope you've got some good leverage in emphasizing this message to your vendor.

I know a few locals who design/build/install/support Asterisk

installations and them tell me it's a tough business.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> Thank you to everyone who responded.

>

> I spent most of the day yesterday researching this. I think the problem is

> related to implementation of "early media" and SIP Code 183 messaging. We

> are not using SIP trunks; we are interfacing with the PSTN via a Level 3

> (formerly Time-Warner Telecom) PRI. I think there is/are a configuration

> issue(s) related to this messaging somewhere either in the Level 3 service,

> the Patton gateway, the 3CX VoIP software, and/or the YeaLink phones.

>

> This vendor lowballed the bid because, in part, they were not highly

> experienced in this type of work. They're a white-box computer and IT

> administrative services vendor who only recently got into phone systems.

> Ours is, by a few orders of magnitude, the largest phone installation

> they've ever done, and they had only done a literal handful before us. We

> trusted them because they've been very good on strictly computer stuff.

> Their management is failing to accept that this is different: They did not

> sell us a server, software, switches and phones, separately. They sold us a

> phone *system*, and they are responsible for all aspects of the system

> functioning properly.

>

> Digital phone systems are also computers, and some of them, including the

> one we just replaced, also have separate hardware and software components.

> The fact that VoIP PBX software can run on a Windows computer does not, IMO,

> change the "business model" with regard to the sale of phone systems in any

> respect. A digital PBX vendor would immediately accept responsibility for

> failing to deliver a properly-configured system and fix it, for no charge.

>

> I suspect that a more experienced provider would understand this problem and

> would not have had much difficulty in getting the configuration(s) done

> correctly. This vendor, due to inexperience, underbid the installation labor

> cost, and underestimated the difficulty of properly configuring our system,

> and is now trying to recoup its losses.

>

> I sympathize with them, but I am not going to pay them to learn how to

> design and install phone systems properly.

>

> Ken Dibble

> www.stic-cil.org

>

>

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Ken Dibble

Posted: 2016-03-29 13:18:03   Link

We took a bid from an Asterix vendor. I actually would have preferred

a Linux-based system, but they were even smaller and less experienced

than the vendor we went with.

>I think folks have gotten pretty lackadaisical with "acceptable level

>of service" for computers these days. The phone industry operates at a

>different level.

>

>I hope you've got some good leverage in emphasizing this message to

>your vendor.

>

>I know a few locals who design/build/install/support Asterisk

>installations and them tell me it's a tough business.

>

>On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> > Thank you to everyone who responded.

> >

> > I spent most of the day yesterday researching this. I think the problem is

> > related to implementation of "early media" and SIP Code 183 messaging. We

> > are not using SIP trunks; we are interfacing with the PSTN via a Level 3

> > (formerly Time-Warner Telecom) PRI. I think there is/are a configuration

> > issue(s) related to this messaging somewhere either in the Level 3 service,

> > the Patton gateway, the 3CX VoIP software, and/or the YeaLink phones.

> >

> > This vendor lowballed the bid because, in part, they were not highly

> > experienced in this type of work. They're a white-box computer and IT

> > administrative services vendor who only recently got into phone systems.

> > Ours is, by a few orders of magnitude, the largest phone installation

> > they've ever done, and they had only done a literal handful before us. We

> > trusted them because they've been very good on strictly computer stuff.

> > Their management is failing to accept that this is different: They did not

> > sell us a server, software, switches and phones, separately. They sold us a

> > phone *system*, and they are responsible for all aspects of the system

> > functioning properly.

> >

> > Digital phone systems are also computers, and some of them, including the

> > one we just replaced, also have separate hardware and software components.

> > The fact that VoIP PBX software can run on a Windows computer

> does not, IMO,

> > change the "business model" with regard to the sale of phone systems in any

> > respect. A digital PBX vendor would immediately accept responsibility for

> > failing to deliver a properly-configured system and fix it, for no charge.

> >

> > I suspect that a more experienced provider would understand this

> problem and

> > would not have had much difficulty in getting the configuration(s) done

> > correctly. This vendor, due to inexperience, underbid the

> installation labor

> > cost, and underestimated the difficulty of properly configuring our system,

> > and is now trying to recoup its losses.

> >

> > I sympathize with them, but I am not going to pay them to learn how to

> > design and install phone systems properly.

> >

> > Ken Dibble

> > www.stic-cil.org

> >

> >

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Ted Roche

Posted: 2016-03-29 14:12:11   Link

Yes, the technology definitely needs to take a back seat to the

ability of the vendor to understand and meet your needs.

Asterisk is a remarkably feature-filled and robust product, but like

any of the other tools, you need to find someone who knows how to use

it and can offer the support you need.

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> We took a bid from an Asterix vendor. I actually would have preferred a

> Linux-based system, but they were even smaller and less experienced than the

> vendor we went with.

>

>

>> I think folks have gotten pretty lackadaisical with "acceptable level

>> of service" for computers these days. The phone industry operates at a

>> different level.

>>

>> I hope you've got some good leverage in emphasizing this message to your

>> vendor.

>>

>> I know a few locals who design/build/install/support Asterisk

>> installations and them tell me it's a tough business.

>>

>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

>> > Thank you to everyone who responded.

>> >

>> > I spent most of the day yesterday researching this. I think the problem

>> > is

>> > related to implementation of "early media" and SIP Code 183 messaging.

>> > We

>> > are not using SIP trunks; we are interfacing with the PSTN via a Level 3

>> > (formerly Time-Warner Telecom) PRI. I think there is/are a configuration

>> > issue(s) related to this messaging somewhere either in the Level 3

>> > service,

>> > the Patton gateway, the 3CX VoIP software, and/or the YeaLink phones.

>> >

>> > This vendor lowballed the bid because, in part, they were not highly

>> > experienced in this type of work. They're a white-box computer and IT

>> > administrative services vendor who only recently got into phone systems.

>> > Ours is, by a few orders of magnitude, the largest phone installation

>> > they've ever done, and they had only done a literal handful before us.

>> > We

>> > trusted them because they've been very good on strictly computer stuff.

>> > Their management is failing to accept that this is different: They did

>> > not

>> > sell us a server, software, switches and phones, separately. They sold

>> > us a

>> > phone *system*, and they are responsible for all aspects of the system

>> > functioning properly.

>> >

>> > Digital phone systems are also computers, and some of them, including

>> > the

>> > one we just replaced, also have separate hardware and software

>> > components.

>> > The fact that VoIP PBX software can run on a Windows computer does not,

>> > IMO,

>> > change the "business model" with regard to the sale of phone systems in

>> > any

>> > respect. A digital PBX vendor would immediately accept responsibility

>> > for

>> > failing to deliver a properly-configured system and fix it, for no

>> > charge.

>> >

>> > I suspect that a more experienced provider would understand this problem

>> > and

>> > would not have had much difficulty in getting the configuration(s) done

>> > correctly. This vendor, due to inexperience, underbid the installation

>> > labor

>> > cost, and underestimated the difficulty of properly configuring our

>> > system,

>> > and is now trying to recoup its losses.

>> >

>> > I sympathize with them, but I am not going to pay them to learn how to

>> > design and install phone systems properly.

>> >

>> > Ken Dibble

>> > www.stic-cil.org

>> >

>> >

>

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Re: [NF] VoIP Phone Systems and PSTN Signalling

Author: Charles Hart Enzer, M.D.

Posted: 2016-03-29 15:24:59   Link

Not exactly related.

I use *eVoice* <http://www.evoice.com> and our grandson uses *Grasshopper

<http://grasshopper.com>*

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-a>

This

email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.

www.avast.com

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-a>

<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

*Shai / שי Charles Hart Enzer, M.D., FAACAPVolunteer Associate Professor of

PsychiatryUniversity of Cincinnati Medical

CenterWebSite:http://TinyURL.com/EnzerMD <http://TinyURL.com/EnzerMD>*

*“There is no passion to be found playing small -- in settling for a

life** that is less than the one you are capable of living.”*

*Nelson Mandela*

*Stop **Spammers** and **Virus Propagation*

*Before forwarding, please delete the history of all email address*

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Ted Roche <tedroche@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, the technology definitely needs to take a back seat to the

> ability of the vendor to understand and meet your needs.

>

> Asterisk is a remarkably feature-filled and robust product, but like

> any of the other tools, you need to find someone who knows how to use

> it and can offer the support you need.

>

> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com> wrote:

> > We took a bid from an Asterix vendor. I actually would have preferred a

> > Linux-based system, but they were even smaller and less experienced than

> the

> > vendor we went with.

> >

> >

> >> I think folks have gotten pretty lackadaisical with "acceptable level

> >> of service" for computers these days. The phone industry operates at a

> >> different level.

> >>

> >> I hope you've got some good leverage in emphasizing this message to your

> >> vendor.

> >>

> >> I know a few locals who design/build/install/support Asterisk

> >> installations and them tell me it's a tough business.

> >>

> >> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Ken Dibble <krdibble@stny.rr.com>

> wrote:

> >> > Thank you to everyone who responded.

> >> >

> >> > I spent most of the day yesterday researching this. I think the

> problem

> >> > is

> >> > related to implementation of "early media" and SIP Code 183 messaging.

> >> > We

> >> > are not using SIP trunks; we are interfacing with the PSTN via a

> Level 3

> >> > (formerly Time-Warner Telecom) PRI. I think there is/are a

> configuration

> >> > issue(s) related to this messaging somewhere either in the Level 3

> >> > service,

> >> > the Patton gateway, the 3CX VoIP software, and/or the YeaLink phones.

> >> >

> >> > This vendor lowballed the bid because, in part, they were not highly

> >> > experienced in this type of work. They're a white-box computer and IT

> >> > administrative services vendor who only recently got into phone

> systems.

> >> > Ours is, by a few orders of magnitude, the largest phone installation

> >> > they've ever done, and they had only done a literal handful before us.

> >> > We

> >> > trusted them because they've been very good on strictly computer

> stuff.

> >> > Their management is failing to accept that this is different: They did

> >> > not

> >> > sell us a server, software, switches and phones, separately. They sold

> >> > us a

> >> > phone *system*, and they are responsible for all aspects of the system

> >> > functioning properly.

> >> >

> >> > Digital phone systems are also computers, and some of them, including

> >> > the

> >> > one we just replaced, also have separate hardware and software

> >> > components.

> >> > The fact that VoIP PBX software can run on a Windows computer does

> not,

> >> > IMO,

> >> > change the "business model" with regard to the sale of phone systems

> in

> >> > any

> >> > respect. A digital PBX vendor would immediately accept responsibility

> >> > for

> >> > failing to deliver a properly-configured system and fix it, for no

> >> > charge.

> >> >

> >> > I suspect that a more experienced provider would understand this

> problem

> >> > and

> >> > would not have had much difficulty in getting the configuration(s)

> done

> >> > correctly. This vendor, due to inexperience, underbid the installation

> >> > labor

> >> > cost, and underestimated the difficulty of properly configuring our

> >> > system,

> >> > and is now trying to recoup its losses.

> >> >

> >> > I sympathize with them, but I am not going to pay them to learn how to

> >> > design and install phone systems properly.

> >> >

> >> > Ken Dibble

> >> > www.stic-cil.org

> >> >

> >> >

> >

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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