My opinion of the 2003 DevCon was, in a word, flat.
The keynote had much too much focus on .NET. By the time the attendees
recovered from the keynote, the conference was over. That was it in a
nutshell.
No toast to the Toms, but it wouldn't have worked anyway. Only a few
people would have joined in the celebration.
I'll type up a much longer version of events when time permits...
Bill Anderson
Bill Anderson Wrote:
The keynote had much too much focus on .NET. By the time the attendees
recovered from the keynote, the conference was over. That was it in a
nutshell.
JVP's Reply:
A little melodramatic; don't you think? First off - given the fact that the
keynote was given by people who work for MS, what did you expect? And, your
comments necessarily imply that .NET is somehow bad for the Fox community.
The fact is Bill - Fox's interop features with .NET are about the only meaty
new thing to discuss - and that means discussing .Net. Take that away - and
you essentially have the same tool.
If people want VFP-only coverage (and in turn - maintin their myopic view of
the world and keep their heads in the sand) - then WhilFest is the place for
them.
Your comments are interesting to the extent that I did not think there was
anything positive to say about the Advisor Show. In fact - because the
Advisor show did have .NET content - that in itself is a huge service to the
Fox community. Nonetheless - on balance - the dollars charged for the show
does outpace the value received.
All of that said - I don't think the regional shows should all of a sudden
start concentrating or having significant parts on .NET. If people want .NET
content - there are other venues. And, when MS is invited and they assist in
the marketing of a show - they have the right to send their message - which
whether you want to believe this or not - is a positive one for the Fox
community.
< JVP >
john.v.petersen wrote:
>Bill Anderson Wrote:
>
>The keynote had much too much focus on .NET. By the time the attendees
>recovered from the keynote, the conference was over. That was it in a
>nutshell.
>
>
>JVP's Reply:
>
>A little melodramatic; don't you think? First off - given the fact that the
>keynote was given by people who work for MS, what did you expect? And, your
>comments necessarily imply that .NET is somehow bad for the Fox community.
>
You weren't there. I'll supply the details later...
(melodramatic) -- Man, is that the pot calling the kettle black???
(comments, .NET implications) -- No, I was implying that a .NET
dominated keynote at a Visual FoxPro conference (50 minutes out of a 75
minute keynote) was bad for the Fox community. You can argue all you
want, but the audience didn't like it...
>
>If people want VFP-only coverage (and in turn - maintin their myopic view of
>the world and keep their heads in the sand) - then WhilFest is the place for
>them.
>
>
You're being melodramatic <g>. You're the one stating the choices are no
.NET and some .NET, I'm not.
MSFT blew it, and they knew it. There isn't much more to say -- your
conclusions are not relevant.
>Your comments are interesting to the extent that I did not think there was
>anything positive to say about the Advisor Show. In fact - because the
>Advisor show did have .NET content - that in itself is a huge service to the
>Fox community. Nonetheless - on balance - the dollars charged for the show
>does outpace the value received.
>
Showing .NET content is relevant. Dominating with .NET at a VFP
conference is not.
>All of that said - I don't think the regional shows should all of a sudden
>start concentrating or having significant parts on .NET. If people want .NET
>content - there are other venues. And, when MS is invited and they assist in
>the marketing of a show - they have the right to send their message - which
>whether you want to believe this or not - is a positive one for the Fox
>community.
>
It's neither positive nor negative, it just is (their message). Like I
said, MSFT knew they blew it.
Bill
No reflection on DevCon since I have not attended those, but that is exactly
what happened to the user group here in the Albany, NY area.
This group is now the Capital District Application Developers Users Group.
While it was done with the best intentions of expanding the horizons of the
"old timers", it certainly did me a dis-service, as the content of the
sessions expanded (read diluted) into non Visual FoxPro matters... or the
VFP focus gradually shrunk... :( I had to stop going.
No offense intended to the great talent of the Albany area programmers. I
wish my development phase were at a point where I could seek to expand my
languages and databases, but for now, Spanish, English and VFP has to be my
limit. ;)
*Peace!*
Pablo Rivera
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* -----Original Message-----
* [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Bill Anderson
* Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 2:55 AM
*
* My opinion of the 2003 DevCon was, in a word, flat.
*
* The keynote had much too much focus on .NET. By the time the
* attendees
* recovered from the keynote, the conference was over. That was it in a
* nutshell.
*
* No toast to the Toms, but it wouldn't have worked anyway. Only a few
* people would have joined in the celebration.
*
* I'll type up a much longer version of events when time permits...
*
* Bill Anderson
*
Give me peace will you? (Thinking to myself: Will I also need to put NF's
into my delete rule to avoid your insensitive jabber jabber jabber!)
Jeeeeezzzz!!!
*Peace!*
Pablo Rivera
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* -----Original Message-----
* [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of john.v.petersen
* Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:39 PM
*
*
* JVP's Reply:
*
* If people want VFP-only coverage (and in turn - maintin their
* myopic view of the world and keep their heads in the sand) -
* then WhilFest is the place for them.
*
<snip>
Pablo Rivera Wrote:
Give me peace will you? (Thinking to myself: Will I also need to put NF's
into my delete rule to avoid your insensitive jabber jabber jabber!)
Jeeeeezzzz!!!
JVP:
What was insensitive? All I said is that if you want Fox-only content -
WhilFest is the place for you. And yes - if people are interested in only
Fox - then I would have to say that is an exctremely limited viewpoint of
the world and one that in the long-run - is a disservice.
Of course, if you think that is insensitive - that is entirely your
perogative and while I may disagree with your conclclusion - I respect your
right to both come to and express that conclusion.
Regards....
Bill Anderson wrote:
(melodramatic) -- Man, is that the pot calling the kettle black???
JVP:
Well...you would have to provide details on this. Brutal honesty and realism
perhaps - but melodramatic???? No...
Bill Anderson Wrote:
No, I was implying that a .NET
dominated keynote at a Visual FoxPro conference (50 minutes out of a 75
minute keynote) was bad for the Fox community. You can argue all you
want, but the audience didn't like it...
JVP:
I guess my response is - "What did the attendees expect?" Anyone with a clue
knows that if MS is giving a keynote - it will have a decidedly .NET flair.
FWIW, I don't see why a keynote like this should put a damper on things -
unless of course people wish to ignore the truth. The fact is, the meat and
potatos of a conference lies in the breakout sessions - not the keynote.
Look at the bright side - MS is continuing to support the product - and from
what I understand - more of .NET will have a VFP flair. The good news - as
I understand it - is that people INSIDE MS are looking at VFP. This is
where YAG - I think - is having major influence.
VFP has not nor will it ever be the strategic focus of MS. Game - set -
match - it is over. The next best thing you can hope for is that VS .NET
gets the productivity features that makes VFP a good tool. At the same time
however, we don't want the baggage that VFP brings to the table that makes
it in some respects - far inferior to .NET...
Oddly enough, people like me are looking at the glass as being half full
while people like you are looking at the glass as being half empty. Pretty
ironic I would say....
Bill Anderson said:
MSFT blew it, and they knew it. There isn't much more to say -- your
conclusions are not relevant.
JVP:
Well...my conclusions are relevant. Whether you want to recognize them or
not - that is your choice. As for whether MS feels they "blew it" - I highly
suspect whether that is really true. In public, the mantra is to evanglize
.NET - period. Again, the meat of the conference is in the sessions. And
FWIW, in the last few years - at least 25% and at times a greater % of Fox
conferences have been devoted to non-fox technologies.
As the person who gave what is arbuably the first devcon sessions on Fox
consuming data using non-fox technology - I again would say my conclusions
are highly relevant. And, while I was not there, I did get briefed on the
show by people inside and outside of MS...
Bill Anderson said:
Showing .NET content is relevant. Dominating with .NET at a VFP
conference is not.
JVP:
This conclusion on your part is without merit. If you look at the session
breakdown by technology - the conference was dominated by pure Fox sessions
- sql server, office, and iis - all of which have become essential to a fox
conference. You really cannot count the precons - as they are optional.
Nonethess, there were sql server and Fox precons as well.
The conference was not "dominated" by .NET. If you are attributing this to
the keynote - you are placing WAY too much emphasis on the importance of the
keynote...
Bill Anderson Said:
It's neither positive nor negative, it just is (their message). Like I
said, MSFT knew they blew it.
JVP:
My guess is if MS had to do it again, they would play it the same way....
You may think they knew they blew it - but given that it was in line with
the overal MS strategy and given that there was a nice balance of sessions -
I disagree with your conclusion...
I tend to agree with JVP on this one. I see the glass half full -- It would be
nice if there weren't so many bugs in 8 though. I've had to go back to VFP7
(which I guess is "illegal"?).
As for Bill's original statement, I think it was rather impolitic (and
impolite?) to spend so much of the keynote on .Nyet but what else to you expect
from M$.
However, John, you made what I thought was a rather gratuitous, personal dig at
Whilfest which had plenty of .NET sessions (as relates to VFP), as well as SQL
Server and ADO (as relates to VFP) when I was there last year. Were you there?
Chet
----- Original Message -----
From: "john.v.petersen" <john.v.petersen@comcast.net>
To: <profoxtech@leafe.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [NF] - 2003 DevCon (short)
> Bill Anderson wrote:
>
> (melodramatic) -- Man, is that the pot calling the kettle black???
>
> JVP:
>
> Well...you would have to provide details on this. Brutal honesty and realism
> perhaps - but melodramatic???? No...
>
> Bill Anderson Wrote:
>
> No, I was implying that a .NET
> dominated keynote at a Visual FoxPro conference (50 minutes out of a 75
> minute keynote) was bad for the Fox community. You can argue all you
> want, but the audience didn't like it...
>
>
> JVP:
>
> I guess my response is - "What did the attendees expect?" Anyone with a clue
> knows that if MS is giving a keynote - it will have a decidedly .NET flair.
> FWIW, I don't see why a keynote like this should put a damper on things -
> unless of course people wish to ignore the truth. The fact is, the meat and
> potatos of a conference lies in the breakout sessions - not the keynote.
>
> Look at the bright side - MS is continuing to support the product - and from
> what I understand - more of .NET will have a VFP flair. The good news - as
> I understand it - is that people INSIDE MS are looking at VFP. This is
> where YAG - I think - is having major influence.
>
> VFP has not nor will it ever be the strategic focus of MS. Game - set -
> match - it is over. The next best thing you can hope for is that VS .NET
> gets the productivity features that makes VFP a good tool. At the same time
> however, we don't want the baggage that VFP brings to the table that makes
> it in some respects - far inferior to .NET...
>
> Oddly enough, people like me are looking at the glass as being half full
> while people like you are looking at the glass as being half empty. Pretty
> ironic I would say....
>
> Bill Anderson said:
>
> MSFT blew it, and they knew it. There isn't much more to say -- your
> conclusions are not relevant.
>
>
> JVP:
>
> Well...my conclusions are relevant. Whether you want to recognize them or
> not - that is your choice. As for whether MS feels they "blew it" - I highly
> suspect whether that is really true. In public, the mantra is to evanglize
> .NET - period. Again, the meat of the conference is in the sessions. And
> FWIW, in the last few years - at least 25% and at times a greater % of Fox
> conferences have been devoted to non-fox technologies.
>
> As the person who gave what is arbuably the first devcon sessions on Fox
> consuming data using non-fox technology - I again would say my conclusions
> are highly relevant. And, while I was not there, I did get briefed on the
> show by people inside and outside of MS...
>
> Bill Anderson said:
>
> Showing .NET content is relevant. Dominating with .NET at a VFP
> conference is not.
>
>
> JVP:
>
> This conclusion on your part is without merit. If you look at the session
> breakdown by technology - the conference was dominated by pure Fox sessions
> - sql server, office, and iis - all of which have become essential to a fox
> conference. You really cannot count the precons - as they are optional.
> Nonethess, there were sql server and Fox precons as well.
>
> The conference was not "dominated" by .NET. If you are attributing this to
> the keynote - you are placing WAY too much emphasis on the importance of the
> keynote...
>
> Bill Anderson Said:
>
> It's neither positive nor negative, it just is (their message). Like I
> said, MSFT knew they blew it.
>
> JVP:
>
> My guess is if MS had to do it again, they would play it the same way....
>
> You may think they knew they blew it - but given that it was in line with
> the overal MS strategy and given that there was a nice balance of sessions -
> I disagree with your conclusion...
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]
>From the list of sessions:
Total conference sessions: 35, pre-con sessions: 4.
".NET" in the session title: 5 sessions, 1 pre-con session
"Linux" in the session title: 3 sessions, 1 pre-con session
"MySQL" in the session title: 1 session
"The Linux Environment" session track: 5 sessions (some listed above)
Cindy Winegarden MCSD, Microsoft MVP
cindy.winegarden@mvps.org
"... if you want Fox-only content - WhilFest is the place for you..."
At least I now know which one to choose should I ever go to a VFP conference.
Allen
-----Original Message-----
What was insensitive? All I said is that if you want Fox-only content -
WhilFest is the place for you. And yes - if people are interested in only
Fox - then I would have to say that is an exctremely limited viewpoint of
the world and one that in the long-run - is a disservice.