My point was that Bill was holding Jefferson up to
such a high standard, when he was really just like
anyone else.
--- john harvey <john.harvey (at) shelbynet DOT com> wrote:
> And Abraham Lincoln banished the Indians to the
> trail of tears, what is your
> opinion of him? They lived in a different time and
> there was a different
> set of rules. Some time in the distant future we
> may be castigated for some
> behavior we believe is normal.
>
> John Harvey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: profox-bounces@leafe.com
> [mailto:profox-bounces (at) leafe DOT com] On Behalf
> Of Michael Madigan
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:19 PM
> To: ProFox Email List
> Subject: RE: [OT] RE: web app
>
> Except that he owned slaves, so he was a big fat
> hypocrite.
>
> --- Bill Arnold <bill@wjarnold.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > >If Thomas Jefferson were alive today, he would
> > make this
> > > case far more eloquently, but the basics are the
> > basics.
> > >
> > > Jefferson? Look in the dictionary next to
> > 'elitist' and
> > > you'll see his portrait. Wasn't it Plato that
> > observed democracy, over
> > time,
> > > tended to devolve into plutocracy? That seems to
> > be playing itself out
> >
> > > in the U.S. now.
> >
> >
> >
> > How about a peek into history to see what he
> > actually said?
> >
> >
> > "Thomas Jefferson embodied his vision in the
> > inspiring words, "We hold
> > these truths to be self-evident: That all men are
> > created equal; that
> > they are endowed by their Creator with certain
> > unalienable rights; that
> > among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of
> > happiness; that to
> > secure these rights, governments are instituted
> > among men." "
> >
>
http://www.learner.org/biographyofamerica/prog05/feature/
> >
> >
> > The Jefferson/Hamilton debates provided useful
> > contrast:
> >
> >
> > "Jefferson advocated a decentralized agrarian
> > republic. He recognized
> > the value of a strong central government in
> foreign
> > relations, but he
> > did not want it strong in other respects.
> Hamilton's
> > great aim was more
> > efficient organization, whereas Jefferson once
> said
> > "I am not a friend
> > to a very energetic government." Hamilton feared
> > anarchy and thought in
> > terms of order; Jefferson feared tyranny and
> thought
> > in terms of
> > freedom."
> >
>
http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm
> >
> > Point 1: Jefferson was against strong central
> > government, fearing it
> > would become tyrannical; favored states rights
> > instead
> > Point 2: Thought in terms of freedom
> >
> >
> > "While Jefferson cared most about political
> ideals,
> > Hamilton focused his
> > energy on creating the institutions that would
> make
> > America a world
> > power." [ibid]
> >
> > Point 3: cared more about political ideals than
> > being a world power
> >
> >
> > "Alexander Hamilton believed that people were by
> > nature selfish and
> > sinful, inclined toward greed rather than virtue.
> > Thomas Jefferson held
> > that though the people might make mistakes,
> > governments could usually
> > rely on the public's good judgment."
> >
>
http://www.learner.org/biographyofamerica/prog05/feature/page02.html
> >
> >
> > "Jefferson did believe in the people. He
> subscribed
> > to the philosophy
> > that the government exists because the people wish
> > it to. Jefferson was
> > educated and wealthy. He could have created a new
> > aristocracy in
> > America. Hamilton believed in a new meritocracy.
> An
> > illegitimate child
> > in a time of nobility, Hamilton felt those who
> were
> > smartest and most
> > successful should decide the people's fate. But as
> > Jefferson saw it, the
> > people may not always make the smartest decisions,
> > but neither do
> > so-called educated men. At least in a true
> democracy
> > the decisions -
> > foolish or wise - belonged to the masses."
> >
>
http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/frank/111799.htm
> >
> >
> > More Jefferson quotes on this:
> >
> > "Whenever the people are well-informed, they can
> be
> > trusted with their
> > own government; whenever things get so far wrong
> as
> > to attract their
> > notice, they may be relied on to set them to
> rights.
> > "(1789)
> >
> > "I am not among those who fear the people. They,
> and
> > not the rich, are
> > our dependence for continued freedom." (1816)
> >
> > "I have great confidence in the common sense of
> > mankind in general."
> > (1800)
> >
> http://www.pinzler.com/ushistory/hamjeffpopsupp.html
> >
> >
> > Point 4: Jefferson believed in people (democracy)
> vs
> > a ruling class
> >
> >
> > "Therein lies the essential difference between
> > Alexander Hamilton and
> > Thomas Jefferson -- Hamilton sought the former
> goal:
> > power; Jefferson,
> > the latter: rights. ... where Hamilton sought to
> > expand the power of the
> > United States government, Jefferson sought to
> expand
> > liberty. ... The
> > difference is that Jefferson' s constructionism
> > strictly limited the
> > power of the government in the name of liberty."
> > http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2916
> >
> >
> > Point 5: Jefferson sought to expand liberty versus
> > the power of central
> > gov't.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Sam Thornton
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
=== message truncated ===
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